Grunge~ Can it be considered heavy metal?

Temple of Blood wrote:

S.D. wrote:

Probably about as surprised as I was to see yet ANOTHER pointless "Is this metal?" thread.

I know it.

All we have to do is check and see what the magazines and "music journalists" said at the time. That's all the evidence you need!

It makes thinking really easy when you let others do it for you.

Popular opinion = truth!

Thank you for your wise inpoint Gandi

manny wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

S.D. wrote:

Probably about as surprised as I was to see yet ANOTHER pointless "Is this metal?" thread.

I know it.

All we have to do is check and see what the magazines and "music journalists" said at the time. That's all the evidence you need!

It makes thinking really easy when you let others do it for you.

Popular opinion = truth!

Thank you for your wise inpoint Gandi

Actually, it was the music journalists and magazines (and fans) that named and labeled the music "grunge". So, you are correct in your assessment.

However, you're (not so veiled ) point about the journalists (and fans) all being wrong about what they labeled 'heavy metal' in the 1970's is incorrect. Just like 'grunge' was a tag put on bands by 1990's fans & journalists, 'heavy metal' was a tag put on bands by labels and fans at it's inception in the 1970's. (Even if some of the journalists/magazines used that term in a derogatory way.) So you can "check and see what the magazines and music journalists said at the time." And yes, that is solid evidence of the birth of heavy metal and what band's helped create it.

Did I ever tell you guys how much I love old school Duran Duran?

ultmetal wrote:

manny wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

S.D. wrote:

Probably about as surprised as I was to see yet ANOTHER pointless "Is this metal?" thread.

I know it.

All we have to do is check and see what the magazines and "music journalists" said at the time. That's all the evidence you need!

It makes thinking really easy when you let others do it for you.

Popular opinion = truth!

Thank you for your wise inpoint Gandi

Actually, it was the music journalists and magazines (and fans) that named and labeled the music "grunge". So, you are correct in your assessment.

However, you're (not so veiled ) point about the journalists (and fans) all being wrong about what they labeled 'heavy metal' in the 1970's is incorrect. Just like 'grunge' was a tag put on bands by 1990's fans & journalists, 'heavy metal' was a tag put on bands by labels and fans at it's inception in the 1970's. (Even if some of the journalists/magazines used that term in a derogatory way.) So you can "check and see what the magazines and music journalists said at the time." And yes, that is solid evidence of the birth of heavy metal and what band's helped create it.

I have to say this is probably the best post ive seen yet on this thread. I still maintain that Grunge is just another branch on the tree that is Heavy Metal just like Industrial, Goth, Thrash, Black, Death, Hair, Glam, etc are all just branches on the Heavy Metal tree

Me personally I like some grunge I dont love all grunge.

I know I tire of the IS this Metal type threads but most of those threads are from those who are in my opinion to be labeled as Not Metal by the Metal community, whereas Ult started it to have a constructive discussion on the genra that has been called Grunge. I understand why Ult started this one at least I think I do Though in all honesty I think this discussion would have been better once the episode of Grunge is aired. It might give a different angle or viewpoint or something constructive to discuss.

ultimately, whether it is or is not metal is in the ear of listener.

Alice In Chains Rule

They were the only band who wrote really good music during the Grunge Explosion

Up to this day I can still listen to "DIRT" without skipping any tracks

When I was younger I was more adamant about "true metal". As if something being metal somehow defined the quality of the music. Good metal = metal, bad metal /= metal. But nowadays I'm an inclusionist. Everything close to metal is metal, at least a little bit. 70's metal is the early definition of heavy metal and grunge isn't that far removed from some of those bands. I'd say "yes" and "no". A lot of grunge bands made it known in no uncertain terms that they shall not be known as a metal act. And so be it, fine. It's not like it makes a difference in regards to the quality of the music. I think nu-metal and alternative metal are both metal. I also think nu-metal is smurf poo. Yes, you can have shitty metal bands.

If you for instance count Nirvana as a metal band, they'd be a really shitty one. They don't really play metal as it's "supposed to be" played - they sound sloppy and off. But hey, they aren't trying to sound like Van Halen. Grunge is supposed to be sloppy and dirty. Something easy and effective, something angsty teenagers can relate to. Not saying grunge is smurf poo, it's just music I don't understand. But there's no denying they took something from heavy metal (and even more so, punk rock) and further evolved it into a new sound.

Maybe I made a bad example. Going beyond genre definitions is not necessarily bad.

Another example is Led Zeppelin. They are one of the best metal bands. But it doesn't stop there. Beyond that, they are also an excellent, legendary rock band. They don't need to be affiliated with subgenres such as heavy metal. Though they definitely play what we call heavy metal.

Lari wrote:

When I was younger I was more adamant about "true metal". As if something being metal somehow defined the quality of the music. Good metal = metal, bad metal /= metal. But nowadays I'm an inclusionist. Everything close to metal is metal, at least a little bit. 70's metal is the early definition of heavy metal and grunge isn't that far removed from some of those bands. I'd say "yes" and "no". A lot of grunge bands made it known in no uncertain terms that they shall not be known as a metal act. And so be it, fine. It's not like it makes a difference in regards to the quality of the music. I think nu-metal and alternative metal are both metal. I also think nu-metal is smurf poo. Yes, you can have shitty metal bands.

If you for instance count Nirvana as a metal band, they'd be a really shitty one. They don't really play metal as it's "supposed to be" played - they sound sloppy and off. But hey, they aren't trying to sound like Van Halen. Grunge is supposed to be sloppy and dirty. Something easy and effective, something angsty teenagers can relate to. Not saying grunge is smurf poo, it's just music I don't understand. But there's no denying they took something from heavy metal (and even more so, punk rock) and further evolved it into a new sound.

Maybe I made a bad example. Going beyond genre definitions is not necessarily bad.

Another example is Led Zeppelin. They are one of the best metal bands. But it doesn't stop there. Beyond that, they are also an excellent, legendary rock band. They don't need to be affiliated with subgenres such as heavy metal. Though they definitely play what we call heavy metal.

I really like and agree with what you said here, I have an interview CD with the band but Kurts mostly talking and it goes on for a bit about Is Nirvana Metal. I think they fit in the overall genra but like you said they dont play the way metal is supposed to be played. I think Nirvana is supposed to sound like The Beatles Meet Black Sabbath Meets the Pixies I think I might be repeating myself alot when it comes to Nirvana its just Ive read alot and listened to alot of interviews about them. When Grunge first hit the mainstream I personally was not a fan of any of them AIC, STP, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam couldnt stand them. Course I still am not a fan of Soundgarden or Pearl Jam. Its funny how grunge is being discussed but nobody has yet to mention Sonic Youth

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

+1


although my personal belief is grunge is hard rock and not metal.

Grunge, I consider as "non-metal". I am not a grunge fan either.

tohostudios wrote:

So we need a "Grunge can be metal" button.

AiC and Soundgarden...nuf' sed.

Always thought grunge was born from punk, especially since most of those Seattle kids started off in that scene.

Overall, I don't consider it metal.

Both rock and metal. Grunge is of course not a music style. Like others have said, some bands leaned more toward rock, while others leaned toward metal.







Not metal?

I gotta say, I do love that the people who say Sabbath and Aerosmith and Alice Cooper—three bands vastly different from each other—are metal refuse to say a band like Tad is metal. Haha.

EmoElmo wrote:

They were the only band who wrote really good music during the Grunge Explosion

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

I think if you add to many foreign elements to metal it's no longer metal to me. I can't stand grunge.The grunge fans I knew in college were pretentious tree-hugging hippies who started wearing flannel 10 minutes after "Smells like teen Smurf poo" began to get heavy rotation on MTV. No offense to you, but I get so tired of hearing "I got an open mind so you must be wrong" attitude.If you want to like different forms of music that's awesome-but don't dilute the metal pool with music forms that are clearly not metal. Sigh and Opeth immediately come to mind as two examples of bands that stretched the boundaries to the breaking point-but they still sound "metal" unlike that Pearl Jam garbage and Eddie Vedder's "look at me I'm a martyr" bull crap. Grunge was for pretentious ironic hipsters, it sounded like whiny teenage angst crap. The same "open minded" grunge fans I knew couldn't tolerate Sodom or anything i liked. AIC were once a glam band -Alice N Chainz I believe-another set of opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon though they technically predate Nevermind with their Facelift album, but they were smart enough to sense the grunge zeitgeist and alter their sound accordingly and yes I do know that Tom Araya shouts a few lines on the Dirt album so you don't have to bring it up. I hate grunge all ways will. I'm glad it's gone

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

I think if you add to many foreign elements to metal it's no longer metal to me. I can't stand grunge.The grunge fans I knew in college were pretentious tree-hugging hippies who started wearing flannel 10 minutes after "Smells like teen Smurf poo" began to get heavy rotation on MTV. No offense to you, but I get so tired of hearing "I got an open mind so you must be wrong" attitude.If you want to like different forms of music that's awesome-but don't dilute the metal pool with music forms that are clearly not metal. Sigh and Opeth immediately come to mind as two examples of bands that stretched the boundaries to the breaking point-but they still sound "metal" unlike that Pearl Jam garbage and Eddie Vedder's "look at me I'm a martyr" bull crap. Grunge was for pretentious ironic hipsters, it sounded like whiny teenage angst crap. The same "open minded" grunge fans I knew couldn't tolerate Sodom or anything i liked. AIC were once a glam band -Alice N Chainz I believe-another set of opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon though they technically predate Nevermind with their Facelift album, but they were smart enough to sense the grunge zeitgeist and alter their sound accordingly and yes I do know that Tom Araya shouts a few lines on the Dirt album so you don't have to bring it up. I hate grunge all ways will. I'm glad it's gone

I take no offense since not once did I state anyone who did not agree with my viewpoint was close minded, difference of opinion, that's all.

As usual Lee Harvey Oswald you miss the point of what I was saying and then you bring up tree huggers and whiney teenage angst and look at me I am martyr lyrics, pretentious ironic hipsters, I was and I am fan of that music, I am not ironic, or hipster, or white, or any other stereotypes you wish to subscribe to people who listen to this type of music.

If you want to see meet anyone who is pretentious , you might try looking in the mirror, for someone who claims to be so open minded, you sure are quick to put down anyone's viewpoint you don't agree with or does not buy into your conspiracy bullsh!t. The fact that something as trivial as meaning or placement of a musical genre as inspired such a passionate posting , I found amusing and somewhat, shall I say ironic.

AiC where definitely Metal - sounds like Metal riffs to me:

[youtube][/youtube]

Flashback

In the late 70's and early 80's, us stoner dudes wore flannel lomg-sleeves over our "jack daniels", "mr zog's", "heineken", "bones", and "rock/metal band" t-shirts. Guess we were "grunge"


And flying up through the forest in a puff of smoke, I see Kevin....

James B. wrote:

Flashback

In the late 70's and early 80's, us stoner dudes wore flannel lomg-sleeves over our "jack daniels", "mr zog's", "heineken", "bones", and "rock/metal band" t-shirts. Guess we were "grunge"


And flying up through the forest in a puff of smoke, I see Kevin....

You bring back memories for me! In the Washington, DC suburbs of Northern Virginia (near Tyson's Corner) in the mid to late 80's, some of the stoner metal folks dressed what would later be considered grunge. The other half of Metal fans didn't dress that way.

I wore flannel years before I ever heard of grunge. Flannel shirts are warm and comfortable, dammit!

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

I think if you add to many foreign elements to metal it's no longer metal to me. I can't stand grunge.The grunge fans I knew in college were pretentious tree-hugging hippies who started wearing flannel 10 minutes after "Smells like teen Smurf poo" began to get heavy rotation on MTV. No offense to you, but I get so tired of hearing "I got an open mind so you must be wrong" attitude.If you want to like different forms of music that's awesome-but don't dilute the metal pool with music forms that are clearly not metal. Sigh and Opeth immediately come to mind as two examples of bands that stretched the boundaries to the breaking point-but they still sound "metal" unlike that Pearl Jam garbage and Eddie Vedder's "look at me I'm a martyr" bull crap. Grunge was for pretentious ironic hipsters, it sounded like whiny teenage angst crap. The same "open minded" grunge fans I knew couldn't tolerate Sodom or anything i liked. AIC were once a glam band -Alice N Chainz I believe-another set of opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon though they technically predate Nevermind with their Facelift album, but they were smart enough to sense the grunge zeitgeist and alter their sound accordingly and yes I do know that Tom Araya shouts a few lines on the Dirt album so you don't have to bring it up. I hate grunge all ways will. I'm glad it's gone

I'm not a pretentious ironic hipster, never have been, and I've always liked grunge.

Here's the thing about comments like this. You throw out all these not-so-veiled insults about band intentions, fan mindsets, etc. But all you come off sounding like is a bitter, close-minded old fart. Seriously.

And nothing is accurate, either. You talk about Alice In Chains being opportunistic posers, yet they evolved their sound years before "grunge" became so popular, years before Nevermind came out. But they're "opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon," right? The bandwagon THAT DIDN'T EXIST...

How anyone can listen to Facelift and not hear Metal is beyond me...