Grunge~ Can it be considered heavy metal?

Eyesore wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

Quote :

Grunge is not something that can do anything. As established, grunge isn't even a style of music. Much like nu-metal. It's an era of music; it cannot play an instrument.

I'm referring to the collective bands from Seattle (at the time) that were under the "grunge" moniker.

Quote :

And you're wrong; plenty of band had double-bass and solos.

What grunge bands had double bass and flashy solos? I consider Alice In Chains the best of 'em...

But, Jerry (as good as he is), didn't shred.

Read this thread. I've already posted videos with both.

Those samples you posted are not what what i had in mind... The overall vibe might be metal, but not the solos.

Anybody watch the episode last night? Seems to me that most the band interviewed, as well as the people from Sub Pop Records and other industry people do not see grunge as part of heavy metal history, but more associated with punk and classic rock. As a matter of fact, they didn't want to be associated with heavy metal at all. Some band members did say they liked some metal. I remember Iron Maiden, Sabbath, and Blue Cheer being mentioned a few times. However, Garth Brooks likes some heavy metal, but that doesn't make his music part of heavy metal history.

I did find it interesting that most of their ideas about heavy metal was Poison, Warrant and Motley Crue. Also found it interesting how they kept referring to heavy metal music as being unintelligent while grunge was more passionate and intelligent.

I saw a little bit of the Grunge episode (as usual, I end up tuning into the show when it's half over) -- by the time I started watching it Kurt Cobain was dead and the grunge scene was on its last legs, so I must've missed the part when they were dismissing metal.

I did find it funny when they started talking about the "grunge lite" bands that appeared in the late 90s (Creed, Candlebox, etc.) and one guy (I forget who it was) sez "If my music inspired any of those bands, just kill me now." Haha.

The next episode is nu-metal/rapcore. ACK!

TheGreatDuck wrote:

kmorg wrote:

To me grunge was the opposite of metal. It was a reaction AGAINST metal.

No.

Eeeeeh... YES!!! You skipped the TO ME part in my post, didn't you?

ultmetal wrote:

The next episode is nu-metal/rapcore. ACK!

That actually sounds interesting to me, I used to hate that genre, but it's really grown on me over the past couple of years.

Great episode last night - Sam Dunn never really answered if Grunge is metal or not, he left it up to the viewer to decide. He seemed to not even be sure if it was by the end of the episode. That said, Grunge WAS influenced by the 70's and early 80's Metal bands, along with 70's hard rock and punk. They all hated the LA Glam scene and part of what they did was a reaction to to that whole movement. The guy from the Melvins was pretty quick to point out who big of an influence Metal was to their sound and the sound of the many of the other bands.

Isn't it ironic that one of the things considered to kill grunge (outside of Cobain offing himself) was the next wave of music that they inspired - grunge lite i.e. Creed and Nickleback.

Vexer6 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

The next episode is nu-metal/rapcore. ACK!

That actually sounds interesting to me, I used to hate that genre, but it's really grown on me over the past couple of years.

If that was the first episode, it wouldn't generate much interest. But after watching all the episodes so far and seeing what a great job he did on the grunge episode I am looking forward to the episode despite the fact that I am not at all a fan of nu-metal

Vexer6 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

The next episode is nu-metal/rapcore. ACK!

That actually sounds interesting to me, I used to hate that genre, but it's really grown on me over the past couple of years.

I'll watch it. It's been an entertaining series so far. Wonder if they will ever get to death metal and black metal.

Fat Freddy wrote:

I did find it funny when they started talking about the "grunge lite" bands that appeared in the late 90s (Creed, Candlebox, etc.) and one guy (I forget who it was) sez "If my music inspired any of those bands, just kill me now." Haha.

That guy would be Mark Arm. I appreciate candor, which one certainly got from those interviewed, but Mr. Arm (Green River & Mudhoney), Jack Endino (Producer from Sub Pop Records), and Melissa Auf der Maur (Ex-Hole) come off as totally unlikable. They gave off that vibe, which for all intents and purposes was, "If I say a genre isn't good, or the music isn't likable, then it is fact". I think it's unwarranted to say that a scene like that of grunge can be labeled as a bunch of pretentious a-holes, because that would fall into the category of generalizing/stereotyping, but my God there are some people who think that their sh!t don't stink.

Having lived in that corner of the country for a brief time (Bellingham, WA), I found the people in the Pacific Northwest to be a very friendly bunch, BUT, I also found it to be a haven for the pseudo-intellectual, who took total pleasure in one upping their Pacific Northwest brethren. It seemed like things always came down to a battle of wits in that part of the country. I guess this shouldn't be a surprise, as the city of Seattle has the highest percentage of those with Bachelors degrees in the country (53.8% compared to the national average of 27.4%). Hell, Hiro Yamamoto (Ex-Soundgarden bassist) left the band during the tour for the Louder Than Love album to get his Masters degree in Physical Chemistry. Hiro did come off as very likable, and I was glad to see that he was one of those interviewed. Though, I wish they would have stated what he was up to these days.

metalinmyveins wrote:

That guy would be Mark Arm. I appreciate candor, which one certainly got from those interviewed, but Mr. Arm (Green River & Mudhoney), Jack Endino (Producer from Sub Pop Records), and Melissa Auf der Maur (Ex-Hole) come off as totally unlikable. They gave off that vibe, which for all intents and purposes was, "If I say a genre isn't good, or the music isn't likable, then it is fact".

Agree on that point for sure. I found it laughable when the girl from Hole put down other forms of music as unintelligent, like Hole was some super scholastic band with exemplary musicianship.

Can any of the musicians in Hole pull off a guitar solo as good as the guitarists from Ratt, White Lion, etc.?

I also found it amusing how they thought that metal was a corporate type of music when the very thing that many grunge artists were rebelling about it what they became themselves.

No I don't think it is metal but certain bands had the sound of metal IMO. AIC, Soundgarden, TAD that is about it.

Wargod

Yeah, I hate it when people get all smug and act like they're real hot sh*t. I don't think Hole is a bad band by any means, but they certainly don't compare to most metal bands. BTW was Courtney Love interviewed? That would've been interesting to see!

ultmetal wrote:

metalinmyveins wrote:

That guy would be Mark Arm. I appreciate candor, which one certainly got from those interviewed, but Mr. Arm (Green River & Mudhoney), Jack Endino (Producer from Sub Pop Records), and Melissa Auf der Maur (Ex-Hole) come off as totally unlikable. They gave off that vibe, which for all intents and purposes was, "If I say a genre isn't good, or the music isn't likable, then it is fact".

Agree on that point for sure. I found it laughable when the girl from Hole put down other forms of music as unintelligent, like Hole was some super scholastic band with exemplary musicianship.

Can any of the musicians in Hole pull off a guitar solo as good as the guitarists from Ratt, White Lion, etc.?

I also found it amusing how they thought that metal was a corporate type of music when the very thing that many grunge artists were rebelling about it what they became themselves.

I'll probably do a bigger write up on this later, regarding my views on grunge, but I had a huge love/hate relationship with the scene. I own the music (Nirvana/Alice In Chains/Pearl Jam/Soundgarden catalogs etc...), but I hate many of the participants. Every genre is going to have their douche bags, but I found that the grunge scene worked harder for that notoriety than any other, and they were proud to be seen in that light. In fact, I don't think many of them want to be liked. I clearly get that impression. It's as if they love their own little corner of that world (which most stay in Seattle), and the niche that they carved for themselves, so outsiders beware. A funny little side story regarding Bellingham: When I lived out there, I was told by others to tell all perspective travelers or potential home buyers that all it does is rain in that part of the country. This of course is a misnomer, as the Pacific Northwest doesn't receive as much rain as people think. There seems to be this paranoia from those born and bred that they will be overrun by outsiders.

Regarding Hole, Eric Erlandson was their lead guitarist, but I never found him to be ground breaking.

Vexer6 wrote:

Yeah, I hate it when people get all smug and act like they're real hot sh*t. I don't think Hole is a bad band by any means, but they certainly don't compare to most metal bands. BTW was Courtney Love interviewed? That would've been interesting to see!

No, I was shocked, because of Kurt's influence on the scene. I couldn't believe Dave Grohl wasn't interviewed either. Had Kris Novoselic been interviewed, he would've been a viable 4th candidate for top prick interview of this installment of the documentary. He was easily the biggest wanker in Nirvana. When you're known for this moment, I think it says it all...

ultmetal wrote:

Can any of the musicians in Hole pull off a guitar solo as good as the guitarists from Ratt, White Lion, etc.?

Probably not, but guitar solos were not important for that style, in fact they were avoided on purpose. Something grunge borrowed from the punk scene. Guitar solos had gotten ridiculously stupid by the time the early 90's came around (shred hell that we were in) so I can completely understand why musicians trying to break out from that scene would avoid them.

Vexer6 wrote:

Yeah, I hate it when people get all smug and act like they're real hot sh*t. I don't think Hole is a bad band by any means, but they certainly don't compare to most metal bands. BTW was Courtney Love interviewed? That would've been interesting to see!

I have visited the area before and while people were friendly there is a HUGE elitist attitude in that area of the country - we are educated and there we are smarted than you and know better than you and if you disagree with us you are just wrong. They talk about "tolerance" yet they show absolutely no tolerance to anyone who disagrees with them. I guess they are Granola Elites!


One other thing on the episode - loved it when Hellhammer was brought up as an influence!

thejokeriv wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Yeah, I hate it when people get all smug and act like they're real hot sh*t. I don't think Hole is a bad band by any means, but they certainly don't compare to most metal bands. BTW was Courtney Love interviewed? That would've been interesting to see!

I have visited the area before and while people were friendly there is a HUGE elitist attitude in that area of the country - we are educated and there we are smarted than you and know better than you and if you disagree with us you are just wrong. They talk about "tolerance" yet they show absolutely no tolerance to anyone who disagrees with them. I guess they are Granola Elites!


One other thing on the episode - loved it when Hellhammer was brought up as an influence!

Yeah, I was shocked to hear that Jeff Ament of Pearl Jam was/is a fan of Venom and Hellhammer. It was one of those say what moments.

Jack Endino is a very cool guy and an immensely talented engineer/producer, I've had the pleasure of meeting him before and he's in no way an elitist.

Metalheads really shouldn't throw stones at so-called "elitist" mentality, metal is one big glass house.

Quote :

Guitar solos had gotten ridiculously stupid by the time the early 90's came around (shred hell that we were in) so I can completely understand why musicians trying to break out from that scene would avoid them.

Solos are meant to compliment a song. I think a break from over-indulgent soloing was needed... but after a while, just hearing boring three chord strumming all the time was real lame. Solos always have their place in music. They just need to be done appropriately.

S.D. wrote:

Jack Endino is a very cool guy and an immensely talented engineer/producer, I've had the pleasure of meeting him before and he's in no way an elitist.

Metalheads really shouldn't throw stones at so-called "elitist" mentality, metal is one big glass house.

He very well might be, but if that's the case, Jack Endino did himself absolutely no favors after last night's episode. I suppose things can be edited to construct a favorable or not so favorable review of oneself, but something tells me he's a straight shooter, and what you see is what you get. For instance Kim Thayil, Hiro Yamamoto, Jerry Cantrell & Sean Kinney came off, like I thought they would. They have always been more laid back personality wise, and aren't out there to ruffle any feathers. Like I've stated throughout this conversation, it's not wise to generalize regarding many within the scene. With that being said, one can sort of see the forest through the trees in regards to who is somewhat open minded, and those who simply are not.

Regarding metal heads, I totally agree with you. A couple of days ago, I was searching for Kirk Hammett's list of favorite UFO albums (since he and Eddie Trunk seem to be their biggest fans in the metal world), as I have been listening to them a lot lately. I was never able to find anything, regarding a favorite's list, but I came across a list of favorite album/songs over the first decade of the 21st century by Lars and Kirk, along with Tom Morello. Lars and Kirk barely had anything metal in their list, and they were absolutely crucified for their lists. I love all types of music, so I was thrilled to see that Lars for example had the Arctic Monkey's "Whatever People Say, That's What I'm Not" as his favorite of the decade. I would tend to agree that metal heads could do themselves a favor by venturing outside of the box a little more, as there is so much great music out there in this world.

Regarding the elitist mentality remark, I call it like I see it. I think that aura of elitist mentality goes beyond the grunge scene, as it reflects people who reside within the state and certainly Seattle. When I state that, I don't dislike those folks at all, but they come off as know-it-alls. I lived out there for a year, and it was a very recognizable trait. The fact that Seattle is very educated, would go along way in proving that point, as elitism isn't a tag that is used to described the uneducated of this world. It is reserved for those who are your pseudo-intellectual type, which is applicable as it pertains to the city of Seattle.

I lived in Seattle a couple different times during the 90's (1991-1992) (1995-2000). I met some know-it-alls, but I also hung out with a bunch of really cool down to earth people.

Blanket generalizations do not apply to cities.

S.D. wrote:

I lived in Seattle a couple different times during the 90's (1991-1992) (1995-2000). I met some know-it-alls, but I also hung out with a bunch of really cool down to earth people.

Blanket generalizations do not apply to cities.

Which I wholeheartedly agree with, since I made that pronouncement in every post! With that being said, I will reiterate, elitism is not a connotation that is associated with the uneducated. It is clearly associated with those who have an educational background. Seattle is clearly way ahead of the curve as it pertains to education. Due to this, people who are educated are prone to having philosophical constructs which exhibit that of elitism. Never did I once say that the whole city (or even the majority) exhibits this type of behavior, which is impossible, since people come from totally different socio-economic backgrounds. Whatever the percentage might be of elitism that exists within certain demographics of society, I think it's fair to say that elitism is a part of Seattle, strictly due to the fact that it is a very highly educated populace.

...and to be honest, I don't even have a problem with that being the case. I think the word elitist took on a life of it's own during the Presidential election of 2008, and because of that, it has become a far more derogatory way of describing someone. I like hanging around smart individuals, as it sure does beat the hell out of hanging with dumb ones.

metalinmyveins wrote:

S.D. wrote:

I lived in Seattle a couple different times during the 90's (1991-1992) (1995-2000). I met some know-it-alls, but I also hung out with a bunch of really cool down to earth people.

Blanket generalizations do not apply to cities.

Which I wholeheartedly agree with, since I made that pronouncement in every post! With that being said, I will reiterate, elitism is not a connotation that is associated with the uneducated. It is clearly associated with those who have an educational background. Seattle is clearly way ahead of the curve as it pertains to education. Due to this, people who are educated are prone to having philosophical constructs which exhibit that of elitism. Never did I once say that the whole city (or even the majority) exhibits this type of behavior, which is impossible, since people come from totally different socio-economic backgrounds. Whatever the percentage might be of elitism that exists within certain demographics of society, I think it's fair to say that elitism is a part of Seattle, strictly due to the fact that it is a very highly educated populace.

...and to be honest, I don't even have a problem with that being the case. I think the word elitist took on a life of it's own during the Presidential election of 2008, and because of that, it has become a far more derogatory way of describing someone. I like hanging around smart individuals, as it sure does beat the hell out of hanging with dumb ones.

I dont like hanging out with people who think they are smarter than everyone else. The very notion that because they had X amount of schooling makes their opinion more valid than someone else's just shows how unenlightened they really are. Those who think they know how to better spend others money and tell others how to live have left ruined and broken lives in their wake.

kmorg wrote:

TheGreatDuck wrote:

kmorg wrote:

To me grunge was the opposite of metal. It was a reaction AGAINST metal.

No.

Eeeeeh... YES!!! You skipped the TO ME part in my post, didn't you?

OK, to you it may be the opposite of metal (although there are several grunge bands that played metal), but it wasn't a reaction against metal.