Grunge~ Can it be considered heavy metal?

Temple of Blood wrote:

I thought Alice in Chains had excellent drumming, and despite the accolades I never heard Matt Cameron from Soundgarden do anything that caught my ear.

What was/is your opinion on Dave Grohl?

manny wrote:

What was/is your opinion on Dave Grohl?

He's excellent.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I thought Alice in Chains had excellent drumming, and despite the accolades I never heard Matt Cameron from Soundgarden do anything that caught my ear.

I am not a drummer, but I thought the accolades on Matt Cameron was based on his unusual time signature on such tunes as 'Outshined' etc 7/8 or whatever its called.

The sameness of drum patterns should not matter to a "metal" fan, should it

James B. wrote:

The sameness of drum patterns should not matter to a "metal" fan, should it

After reading this thread I'm not sure what matters to a "metal" fan. Some think it's the music, some think it's the attitude, some think it's the look, some think it's all of the above. And some seem to think that it's only whatever they say is "metal".

My take is if I like it, I don't give a crap what you want to call it.

At the end of the day, I call it music.

Eyesore wrote:

At the end of the day, I call it music.

Either that or crap. Those are my 2 basic genres.

tohostudios wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

At the end of the day, I call it music.

Either that or crap. Those are my 2 basic genres.

i agree with you and Ken. For as long as this thread has gone on, its still all music and you either like it or you dont.

I put yes. I think its not quite as black and white as that though. To me its alot like the 70s, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC were both considered metal, blues, hard rock, ect while sounding very distinctly different. However they were all at one time labeled heavy metal even if certain groups of fans or even band members did not agree.

I think AiC and Soundgarden are with no doubt. I think Soundgarden is like an updated Black Sabbath.

Nirvana was certainly influenced by metal, but Cobain was influenced by alot of music, punk and new wave included. Bleach was a very sludgy album, this album certainly had a ton of metal in it.

I'm sure the same was discussed when thrash came out, people that grew up on the Sabs, Purple, ect didn't feel like Metallica was apart of their scene, just like many of you don't consider grunge and nu metal to be apart of it today.

I just watched the UK Metal episode of Metal Evolution. I find it interesting that none of the "big 3" (Sabbath, Zeppelin or Deep Purple) considered themselves heavy metal. Over and over again they describe themselves as "heavy rock" or "hard rock".

They consider metal to be a by-product of their sound, one element that was grabbed and then expanded upon by bands like Judas Priest.

James B. wrote:

The sameness of drum patterns should not matter to a "metal" fan, should it

I can say the same thing about some Metal too especially Thrash not saying ALL thrash is guilty of this but to me alot of the drumming sounds the same

exact33 wrote:

tohostudios wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

At the end of the day, I call it music.

Either that or crap. Those are my 2 basic genres.

i agree with you and Ken. For as long as this thread has gone on, its still all music and you either like it or you dont.

I agree to the extent that good music prevails no matter the subgenres it supposedly belongs to, and I say supposedly because it is ultimately the fans and mediia that attribute these labels to bands.

However, metal music usually stands apart from other subgenres of rock influenced music. Romanticism is deeply rooted in metal as a whole with each sub-genre of metal choosing its own aesthetic representation. This romantic asethetic value breathes life into the metal movement and gives fans an identity, a sense of belonging and futher it provides a sense of legtimacy for one's (usually) unpopular and opposing view of the world.

This is where I feel to a metalhead there is a degree of importance to what is or can be classified as metal. Otherwise, as rightly pointed out, whether grunge is metal is moot to someone who merely appreciates the musical value behind this style.

Quote :

I find it interesting that none of the "big 3" (Sabbath, Zeppelin or Deep Purple) considered themselves heavy metal. Over and over again they describe themselves as "heavy rock" or "hard rock".

That's because when these bands were formed, the term "Heavy Metal" did not exist as a music descriptor.

James B. wrote:

The sameness of drum patterns should not matter to a "metal" fan, should it

I am not a drummer, I was just stating why Matt Cameron stood out to me from Soundgarden as a drummer, but no it does not matter, as long as it fits the music.

Grunge obviously didn't use double bass or flashy solos. They're more from the Sabbath school of hard rock.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

I find it interesting that none of the "big 3" (Sabbath, Zeppelin or Deep Purple) considered themselves heavy metal. Over and over again they describe themselves as "heavy rock" or "hard rock".

That's because when these bands were formed, the term "Heavy Metal" did not exist as a music descriptor.

Exactly.

And when the term "heavy metal" first started being used in the 70's, it wasn't used as a badge of honor or as a tag for a music genre, like it is now. It was a derogatory term that music journalists started using to describe heavy bands like Deep Purple, Sabbath, Zeppelin, the Scorpions, Ted Nugent, Kiss, Motorhead, etc. These sorts of bands weren't "loved" but the press in the 70's. However, by the mid-70's some bands started to wear the tag proudly and fans latched onto the term as well. The tags "hard rock" and "heavy metal" were pretty much used interchangeably back then. Many of the British 70's bands that were the "first wave of British Heavy Metal" never called themselves "heavy metal" and to this day still don't call themselves such. Judas Priest were definitely one of the exceptions.

Sabbath were a "heavy blues band". They were friends with the Zeppelin guys long before Zep was formed. After Zep's first album came out, Sabbath tried to "out heavy" Zeppelin. In Iommi's new autobiography, he talks about the friendship that Sabbath and Zeppelin had, as well as their friendly rivalry. He also explains in the book how Zeppelin's heaviness was much more from the drum and bass work, than the guitar work, whereas Sabbath's heaviness came from the guitar tones.

This is why I find it amusing when heavy metal fans say that if there is any blues influence in the music it cannot be heavy metal. The very roots of heavy metal were based in heavy blues; Sabbath, Purple, Priest, Zeppelin.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

I find it interesting that none of the "big 3" (Sabbath, Zeppelin or Deep Purple) considered themselves heavy metal. Over and over again they describe themselves as "heavy rock" or "hard rock".

That's because when these bands were formed, the term "Heavy Metal" did not exist as a music descriptor.

I KNOW that, my point is that even in hindsight with "Heavy Metal" being an established term for at least the past 35 years...these bands STILL don't consider themselves to be "heavy metal", it's just a piece of what they did. To call themselves just a "heavy metal band" would be too limiting and they would be selling themselves short.

Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple TRANSCEND genre tags, as do the majority of the best bands in history. Don't fit inside the f*cking box...BLOW that damn thing up!

S.D. wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

I find it interesting that none of the "big 3" (Sabbath, Zeppelin or Deep Purple) considered themselves heavy metal. Over and over again they describe themselves as "heavy rock" or "hard rock".

That's because when these bands were formed, the term "Heavy Metal" did not exist as a music descriptor.

I KNOW that, my point is that even in hindsight with "Heavy Metal" being an established term for at least the past 35 years...these bands STILL don't consider themselves to be "heavy metal", it's just a piece of what they did. To call themselves just a "heavy metal band" would be too limiting and they would be selling themselves short.

Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple TRANSCEND genre tags, as do the majority of the best bands in history. Don't fit inside the f*cking box...BLOW that damn thing up!

True. That tag can be limiting, just like any other genre tag.

Troublezone wrote:

Grunge obviously didn't use double bass or flashy solos. They're more from the Sabbath school of hard rock.

Grunge is not something that can do anything. As established, grunge isn't even a style of music. Much like nu-metal. It's an era of music; it cannot play an instrument.

And you're wrong; plenty of band had double-bass and solos.

I don't believe I have ever heard a grunge song with double bass drumming in it.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I don't believe I have ever heard a grunge song with double bass drumming in it.

Me neither. Guitar solos, sure. But double-bass drumming? That seems like something too "speedy" for a grunge band. I'd like to hear some.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I don't believe I have ever heard a grunge song with double bass drumming in it.

Me neither. Guitar solos, sure. But double-bass drumming? That seems like something too "speedy" for a grunge band. I'd like to hear some.

how bout some blastbeats as well?

mc666 wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I don't believe I have ever heard a grunge song with double bass drumming in it.

Me neither. Guitar solos, sure. But double-bass drumming? That seems like something too "speedy" for a grunge band. I'd like to hear some.

how bout some blastbeats as well?

Blastbeats in grunge? Surely you jest.

mc666 wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I don't believe I have ever heard a grunge song with double bass drumming in it.

Me neither. Guitar solos, sure. But double-bass drumming? That seems like something too "speedy" for a grunge band. I'd like to hear some.

how bout some blastbeats as well?

Of course. Don't limit genres. They can be whatever you think they are. Don't be a genre Nazi!

Here's one.