Grunge~ Can it be considered heavy metal?

I tend to look at things as "Heavy" or "Not Heavy". AiC is heavy. Pearl Jam is not, IMO. I like listening to heavy things, metal or not.

Hamer12 wrote:

I tend to look at things as "Heavy" or "Not Heavy". AiC is heavy. Pearl Jam is not, IMO. I like listening to heavy things, metal or not.

This makes sense.

I'll be curious to see the Metal Evolution episode about grunge. Should be interesting.

I'm actually shocked that the poll on this one is so close.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

How anyone can listen to Facelift and not hear Metal is beyond me...

That is because you are not tree hugging whiny hipster

Since I think some grunge can be heavy metal, I voted yes just to piss off the metaleliteheads.

Eyesore wrote:

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

I think if you add to many foreign elements to metal it's no longer metal to me. I can't stand grunge.The grunge fans I knew in college were pretentious tree-hugging hippies who started wearing flannel 10 minutes after "Smells like teen Smurf poo" began to get heavy rotation on MTV. No offense to you, but I get so tired of hearing "I got an open mind so you must be wrong" attitude.If you want to like different forms of music that's awesome-but don't dilute the metal pool with music forms that are clearly not metal. Sigh and Opeth immediately come to mind as two examples of bands that stretched the boundaries to the breaking point-but they still sound "metal" unlike that Pearl Jam garbage and Eddie Vedder's "look at me I'm a martyr" bull crap. Grunge was for pretentious ironic hipsters, it sounded like whiny teenage angst crap. The same "open minded" grunge fans I knew couldn't tolerate Sodom or anything i liked. AIC were once a glam band -Alice N Chainz I believe-another set of opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon though they technically predate Nevermind with their Facelift album, but they were smart enough to sense the grunge zeitgeist and alter their sound accordingly and yes I do know that Tom Araya shouts a few lines on the Dirt album so you don't have to bring it up. I hate grunge all ways will. I'm glad it's gone

I'm not a pretentious ironic hipster, never have been, and I've always liked grunge.

Here's the thing about comments like this. You throw out all these not-so-veiled insults about band intentions, fan mindsets, etc. But all you come off sounding like is a bitter, close-minded old fart. Seriously.

And nothing is accurate, either. You talk about Alice In Chains being opportunistic posers, yet they evolved their sound years before "grunge" became so popular, years before Nevermind came out. But they're "opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon," right? The bandwagon THAT DIDN'T EXIST...

Obviously, you don't understand what the term "zeitgeist" means or in what context I'm refering to. And as far as being AIC being opportunistic posers, I would argue that Green River started the whole grunge trend inthe mid-80's with Mother Love Bone and their kind debuting a little bit later, so there definitly was a scene before Nevermind came out. I f hating grunge means I'm close-minded so be it. Like Bart Simpson said about Smashing Pumpkins-teenage depressing lyrics are like shooting fish in a barrel.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Hamer12 wrote:

I tend to look at things as "Heavy" or "Not Heavy". AiC is heavy. Pearl Jam is not, IMO. I like listening to heavy things, metal or not.

This makes sense.

I like this perspective as well. The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, etc., and lots of blues artists can certainly be "heavy" in their own way, and I like music that is "heavy" sounding even if it isn't "metal".

GrandNational wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Hamer12 wrote:

I tend to look at things as "Heavy" or "Not Heavy". AiC is heavy. Pearl Jam is not, IMO. I like listening to heavy things, metal or not.

This makes sense.

I like this perspective as well. The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, etc., and lots of blues artists can certainly be "heavy" in their own way, and I like music that is "heavy" sounding even if it isn't "metal".

GrandNational wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Hamer12 wrote:

I tend to look at things as "Heavy" or "Not Heavy". AiC is heavy. Pearl Jam is not, IMO. I like listening to heavy things, metal or not.

This makes sense.

I like this perspective as well. The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, etc., and lots of blues artists can certainly be "heavy" in their own way, and I like music that is "heavy" sounding even if it isn't "metal".

Exactly.

I think this question is only valid from the perspective of whether or not Alice in Chains can be considered heavy metal or strictly grunge. Because while bands like Nirvana were influenced by metal bands such as Celtic Frost, grunge was not metal and it did not have its roots in metal. This is all from a personal perspective and interpretation of the music, but to me the sound of grunge bands is a mix of punk and art rock just sounding more cynical and depressed.

However, 5 pages into this debate and there have been enough genres thrown about. What it comes down to I think is these elements: attitude, image, and sound. And if you look at the heavy metal genre from the perspective of 80s metal then you would be hard pressed to call grunge metal.

The reason I say from the perspective of 80s metal is to put grunge in the context of some historical time line. You can't simply take grunge outside of the context of its time - when it appeared (at least in the mainstream) and what preceded its popularity. Thus in this context where the attitude was very alpha male centered, where the music was generally loud, heavy, fast and over the top in many aspects, and where the image was flamboyant yet also masculine. Given this generalization of the 80s metal scene, it is difficult to see how grunge can at all belong along side many of the bands that the genre seemed bent up against. Virtually all of the traits 80s metal had were the anti-thesis of the grunge scene and sound.

As I mentioned above, those characteristics of 80s metal are a generalization because they do not take into account the various subtle and at times not so subtle differences within the 80s metal scene. However, irrespective of which sub-genre of 80s metal you choose you end up with some or all of the characteristics I listed above. The same imo cannot be said of grunge from the context of the time it appeared and exploded onto the scene.

The real issue is whether the likes of Soundgarden and Alice in Chains were metal - and I think this is because both bands appealed and have generally held appeal with metal fans over the years. This has for some created an uncomfortable relationship with grunge and kinda dispelled some of the black and white mentality between grunge and metal.

From my perspective, neither Soundgarden or Alice in Chains are metal but at the same time neither band is strictly grunge (if there is such a standard). Put another way, I think both bands were perhaps more heavily inspired by metal. At the same time, Alice in Chains have always recognized their metal influences and have held a close relationship with the scene (through bands like Megadeth, Metallica). The metal scene has always recognized their achievements and has been tolerant and accepting of their music - which cannot be said of many other 'grunge' bands of their time.

With Metal undergoing so many changes and permutations over the years it has become easier to blur the lines and contend that even (some) grunge bands were in fact metal. However as with any genre, I think you must appreciate its contributions and existence in the context of when that genre appeared and was popular instead of what similarities may exist between the modern metal scene and the grunge scene. By the same token, there was a time about a decade ago when metal fans all too readily considered bands like The Haunted and Carnal Forge as thrash metal (or at the time 'neo-thrash'). Whilst those bands were influenced to some extent by thrash (but also by death metal and hardcore) neither were strictly speaking thrash metal.

What perhaps cannot be doubted is that grunge has also influenced heavy music to some extent, directly or indirectly. Its influence on metal in a way was inevitable. Much like how 70s rock, hard rock and punk influenced the 80s metal scene; in a similar (albeit less credited way) grunge has influenced some aspects of metal too. Examples are plentiful I think, and many popular post-80s metal bands have incorporated some aspects of the image, the sound and to some extent the attitude as well.

The indirect effect grunge had on metal is that it shattered the standards imposed by record labels and music promoters in the 80s. Whether people are willing to admit it, thanks to grunge's popularity and the ultimate demise of metal from the mainstream we now have a very wide variety of metal sub-genres which exploded in the underground and continued to rise in popularity over the years.

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

Sonic Youth was earlier but they paved the way for alot of the "grunge" bands Nirvana is a good example

Addy wrote:

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

Sonic Youth was earlier but they paved the way for alot of the "grunge" bands Nirvana is a good example

I can buy that especially since Sonic Youth were cited as influence by a lot of grunge bands.

I know with Nirvana, when it came to shopping for a deal, management, etc....they very much tried to emulate Sonic Youth

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

manny wrote:

I did not mention Sonic Youth because they came out earlier and frankly aren't from Seattle.

As far as 'grunge' being metal, I still stand by my vote, there is no rule book on what metal should sound like, look like, or uniformed image, the way some folks talk, it makes it sound like all metal bands should be homogenized, safely identified, cannot move beyond the barriers of self imposed rules, and ultimately interchangeable with one another, I personally think that opinion is bullsh!t, metal and any other genre of music can have number of influences, sounds, looks, etc, if it didn't then metal would have died long ago.

I think if you add to many foreign elements to metal it's no longer metal to me. I can't stand grunge.The grunge fans I knew in college were pretentious tree-hugging hippies who started wearing flannel 10 minutes after "Smells like teen Smurf poo" began to get heavy rotation on MTV. No offense to you, but I get so tired of hearing "I got an open mind so you must be wrong" attitude.If you want to like different forms of music that's awesome-but don't dilute the metal pool with music forms that are clearly not metal. Sigh and Opeth immediately come to mind as two examples of bands that stretched the boundaries to the breaking point-but they still sound "metal" unlike that Pearl Jam garbage and Eddie Vedder's "look at me I'm a martyr" bull crap. Grunge was for pretentious ironic hipsters, it sounded like whiny teenage angst crap. The same "open minded" grunge fans I knew couldn't tolerate Sodom or anything i liked. AIC were once a glam band -Alice N Chainz I believe-another set of opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon though they technically predate Nevermind with their Facelift album, but they were smart enough to sense the grunge zeitgeist and alter their sound accordingly and yes I do know that Tom Araya shouts a few lines on the Dirt album so you don't have to bring it up. I hate grunge all ways will. I'm glad it's gone

I'm not a pretentious ironic hipster, never have been, and I've always liked grunge.

Here's the thing about comments like this. You throw out all these not-so-veiled insults about band intentions, fan mindsets, etc. But all you come off sounding like is a bitter, close-minded old fart. Seriously.

And nothing is accurate, either. You talk about Alice In Chains being opportunistic posers, yet they evolved their sound years before "grunge" became so popular, years before Nevermind came out. But they're "opportunistic posers who hopped on the grunge bandwagon," right? The bandwagon THAT DIDN'T EXIST...

Obviously, you don't understand what the term "zeitgeist" means or in what context I'm refering to. And as far as being AIC being opportunistic posers, I would argue that Green River started the whole grunge trend inthe mid-80's with Mother Love Bone and their kind debuting a little bit later, so there definitly was a scene before Nevermind came out. I f hating grunge means I'm close-minded so be it. Like Bart Simpson said about Smashing Pumpkins-teenage depressing lyrics are like shooting fish in a barrel.

I do know what "zeitgeist" means, but I'm not sure that you do, because it surely doesn't refer to anything in the future tense. But since that one word apparently changes the context of everything else you said, I'll go with it...

Alice In Chains were psychic.

Quite the theory. But that also makes no sense. Either way, hating grunge doesn't mean that you're close-minded, but refusing to acknowledge that you're wrong or even attempt to educate yourself on the truth of that era does.

I consider Alice In Chains metal. They just happened to be from Seattle during the grunge era.

tohostudios wrote:

Since I think some grunge can be heavy metal, I voted yes just to piss off the metaleliteheads.

Right on!

Funny thing is while I think the drumming in Nevermind is phenomenal I hold that Bleach is the best Nirvana album out there

Troublezone wrote:

I consider Alice In Chains metal. They just happened to be from Seattle during the grunge era.

Yes.

tohostudios wrote:

So we need a "Grunge can be metal" button.

I like this answer best. Is all grunge metal? Nope. Some of it is though. No doubt. I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but there are a few bands I really like. Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots all had roots in heavy metal. Some evolved into a more hard rock direction, other didn't.

I don't have a problem calling it metal. Especially if it upsets a few folks.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

tohostudios wrote:

So we need a "Grunge can be metal" button.

I like this answer best. Is all grunge metal? Nope. Some of it is though. No doubt. I'm not a huge fan of the genre, but there are a few bands I really like. Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots all had roots in heavy metal. Some evolved into a more hard rock direction, other didn't.

I don't have a problem calling it metal. Especially if it upsets a few folks.

it is amusing calling something metal and watching all the 'tr00 metal' folks get upset! For a style built around rebellion and the right to do what you want, they dont like it when others do just that.

Just because there is distortion in grunge don't make it metal.

Did someone say there was? I don't think any one feature makes something metal or not. Or grunge.

It's a combination of elements. Distorted, loud guitars, wailing vocals from a long-hair, pounding tribal drums. Sounds like metal to me. Also sounds like Soundgarden.

One thing I didn't like about grunge back in the 90's was the drumming. I don't know the technical terms, but it sounded like ALL drumming was doing the same beat. Some sorta timing thing. Any drummers here care to explain?

Rock has a certain beat to it and grunge/alt music had a different one. Stone Temple Pilots based their entire career around it. That always threw me off.

I thought Alice in Chains had excellent drumming, and despite the accolades I never heard Matt Cameron from Soundgarden do anything that caught my ear.