Barren Cross

Bummer news... Mike Lee has parted ways with Barren Cross!!

There's a long rambling message from Mike about it in the "blog" section of BC's MySpace page http://www.myspace.com/barrencross , I'm certainly not going to copy/paste all of it, but if you want to read the whole thing, just go there and click on the "OPEN LETTER TO ALL BARREN CROSS FANS" in their "blog" section.

The other three members of Barren Cross have set up a new "official"
MySpace page since Mike is apparently in charge of the old one, that
can be found at http://www.myspace.com/barrencrossmusic.

I'm not sure what exactly went down between these four guys but it certainly sounds like it got ugly. Here's an excerpt from Mike's statement, the actual letter goes on for about twenty million zillion more paragraphs. What it boils down to is apparently Mike's views of the Gospel differ from the rest of the BC boys so he was asked to leave. I'm bummed that they couldn't keep it together for at least one new record!!

OPEN LETTER TO ALL BARREN CROSS FANS

This is Michael Drive, formerly Mike Lee, lead singer/writer for Barren Cross.

It is with regret that I have to inform all you of this.

There is a great problem that has emerged within the band, and because of this, we will no longer be together. I am very sorry about this to all of you, as it had been recently anticipated to re-unite and release a new album. I cannot make this up to you; but as God is willing, I will continue to release similar albums of my own. (For my latest album info: www.michaeldrive.com and www.myspace.com/michaeldrive1).
But concerning the BC plans, perhaps we jumped the gun before dealing with this important issue, and for that, I offer my apology.

I will tell you that Ray Parris, Jim LaVerde, and Steve Whitaker have, with one accord, chosen to separate me from their company. This, they decided over theological differences. After praying about this, I have decided to accept their decision, as I also believe that we do Not represent each other.

Now, I realize that you deserve an account of the situation so as Not to be left in the dark; but because I truly love these guys, I'm going to be very careful here, Not to slander them in any way. Ray, Jim, and Steve have reproached me for my belief of the scriptures, as they contend that it is "not the same gospel" as they believe. On October 21, 2008, we had a telephone conference call, in which these things were discussed and made known between us.

I think its for the best. BC's legacy remains untarnished.

spectrefate wrote:

I think its for the best. BC's legacy remains untarnished.

i agree. let those bands RIP....

Alex

thejokeriv wrote:

Sounds like a good price - in order, IMHO, the CD's rank 10 - Atomic Arena 2) State Of Control 3) Rock For The King. I never liked rattle your cage or the live cd

Great band!

Rattle Your Cage never did much for me either...until recently. I gave it another spin a couple months ago and was just blown away by how good it was. Its 90's production job is what thru me for a loop back in the day, but now I'm able to just really hear how great it is.

later...Cliffy

i'll sell my 2 b.cross tees from world tour 90 as collectibles now....ouch....

I read the entire blog entry. Mike Lee seems like another one of those "intellectual" Christians who feel as though they must constantly tell you what they believe is the truth. Like if you were to ask him, "Mike how are you today?" He would say "Blessed! I am very blessed today!" and then start rattling off 10 Bible passages that confirm his reason for feeling blessed. Ugh. I am VERY glad this band will not be together.

I wonder what the "theological" differences where....

BC could always bring back Vince Van Volt!

kmorg wrote:

Yeah, hatin' was a strong word, although meant in jest. But he did have a heated discussion with Bob in that blog.

I'm not sure hat you mean that you thought I just got RFTK on CD, Spec. I have all their albums on CD....

Bob Beeman appears to have joined the "grace only" crowd. True repentence (as in turning from sin) isn't on his radar. This is the theological difference that Mike is having with his (now former) band mates.

Mike feels as though this extreme grace-only message is excusing sin and, in my judgment, he is correct.

Mike is totally hardcore about this stuff and you know what? Every Bible believing follower of Christ should be.

later...Cliffy

Cliffy wrote:

kmorg wrote:

Yeah, hatin' was a strong word, although meant in jest. But he did have a heated discussion with Bob in that blog.

I'm not sure hat you mean that you thought I just got RFTK on CD, Spec. I have all their albums on CD....

Bob Beeman appears to have joined the "grace only" crowd. True repentence (as in turning from sin) isn't on his radar. This is the theological difference that Mike is having with his (now former) band mates.

Mike feels as though this extreme grace-only message is excusing sin and, in my judgment, he is correct.

Mike is totally hardcore about this stuff and you know what? Every Bible believing follower of Christ should be.

later...Cliffy

I'm not familar with the "grace only" movement. There is a sect called sovereign grace ministries, but their beliefs have nothing to do with grace, more focused on theology expresses in books such as "sinners in the hands of an angry God" by jonathan edwards and other puritanical works.

thejokeriv wrote:

I'm not familar with the "grace only" movement. There is a sect called sovereign grace ministries, but their beliefs have nothing to do with grace, more focused on theology expresses in books such as "sinners in the hands of an angry God" by jonathan edwards and other puritanical works.

"Grace only" is the further dumbing down of the 70's "Jesus is your buddy" movement. The old adage "sinners saved by grace" taken to its logical, modern day, political correctness conclusion. Homosexuality? No big deal. Sex before marriage? Everybody does it. Divorce? No problem. Remarriage? Sure thing!

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR286.htm

Grace is used to excuse doing what you wanna do when you wanna do it, but as long as you're in church every week and dressed the part then you're just fine.

Apostasy at its finest...the modern day American Christian religion.

It's the reason some of us have started using the term, "follower of Christ" instead of "Christian" as today we view Christianity as just another religion.

later...Cliffy

Quote :

The old adage "sinners saved by grace" taken to
its logical, modern day, political correctness conclusion.
Homosexuality? No big deal. Sex before marriage? Everybody does it.
Divorce? No problem. Remarriage? Sure thing!

Are these people then just seen as throwaways to the people who find their behavior inexcuseable? What if someone is cured (HA!) of their homosexuality? I'm sure there are plenty of "upstanding" christians or followers of Christ who have gone through divorce.

I'm just going to repost some stuff that has already been posted on this topic. I too believe we are saved by God's grace alone. It is a gift, one that cannot be earned. However, I do not believe as Cliffy posted above. Grave is not an "excuse to do what you wanna do when you wanna do it"

ultmetal wrote:

nazpastor wrote:

I believe that we still need to ask God to forgive us for those "infirmities", but I believe I can live without willfully disobeying what I KNOW to be contrary to God's Word.

Man, I blow it all the time. I know what is right, yet I sometimes do what is wrong. Paul spoke very similar words. It's the struggle between the flesh and the spirit. It's a daily battle. However, God's Spirit lives inside me and always convicts me of those things I do wrong. That Spirit was given to me as the earnest of my salvation.

I trust in Him alone for my salvation and am thankful for that gift. I know I can not earn it, nor do I deserve it. I can never be holy enough. It is a gift from God. Grace. That does not mean we shouldn't strive to do what we know to be God's will in our lives. Grace is not a ticket to sin. Rather grace should push us to do His will. However, I don't know one person that has actually been able to "live without willfully disobeying what we KNOW to be contrary to God's Word." We all struggle with blatant sin in our lives. Anyone who says otherwise is most likely in denial.

ultmetal wrote:

Quote :

I have 2 small children. I love them. I do not with for them to perish so I set rules for them. Do they break them? Yes. More than once? You betcha. Do I still love them? More the life itself. I would lay down my life for them in a second. Now
imagine my love for my kids multiplied more than you can even comprehend in your small human mind, and that is how much God loves you. He does not wish for you to perish. He sets rules for you to keep you from harm.

If you sin, that upsets Him and drives a wedge between you and God. This wedge remains until you confess your sin and ask for forgiveness. God will never say to you "No, darnit I already forgave you 4 times for this, No More!" God instead choose to forget it ever happened the moment he forgives you.

I was going to refrain from writing any more in this thread because I said my part, but I wanted to say that this is EXCELLENT and exactly how I feel.

ultmetal wrote:

I know I am not worthy of my salvation. I am trusting in Jesus 100% for my eternity. He alone is my hope. I long to please him, like a son pleasing a father...

I also don't believe that Bob Beeman or Sanctuary church holds to those views. Here is a direct quote from Barren Cross bassist, and Sanctuary Pastor Jim LaVerde:

Quote :

Theology can get in the way when one party pushes it down your throat. Especially when you are in ministry together. You have to be of one mind on the majors doctrines of the church, The trinity, Sanctification, the deity of Christ etc... I am not comfortable with the perfectionist view. I believe that salvation is a process and that we do not reach perfection until we pass from this life. If you have ever been around someone who thinks that they have reached a sinless life, they are full of pride, condemning of others, there is something truly rotting in there soul, and usually are gossips. That is what I have seen. It is sicking. Everyone else sees it accept the person who thinks he has somehow arrived. I am a sinner saved by grace who on occasion sins. I would love to crawl inside the mind of someone who thinks he is without sin, I think we would all be shocked.

Jim LaVerde

Quote :

I trust in Him alone for my salvation and am
thankful for that gift. I know I can not earn it, nor do I deserve it.
I can never be holy enough. It is a gift from God. Grace. That does not
mean we shouldn't strive to do what we know to be God's will in our
lives. Grace is not a ticket to sin. Rather grace should push us to do
His will. However, I don't know one person that has actually been able
to "live without willfully disobeying what we KNOW to be contrary to
God's Word." We all struggle with blatant sin in our lives. Anyone who
says otherwise is most likely in denial.

This is an awesome paragraph. Great way to explain it, ult.

So in essence, Mike Lee's beliefs were too hardcore for the rest of the BC guys? Is that what it boils down to?

Fat Freddy wrote:

So in essence, Mike Lee's beliefs were too hardcore for the rest of the BC guys? Is that what it boils down to?

Sounds that way.

As an FYI, I buy more into God's grace than sinners in the hands of an angry God. Sounds like Mike Lee may have bought into the reformed theology (which I have multiple issues with), don't know for sure since I haven't talked to him personally.

ultmetal wrote:

I too believe we are saved by God's grace alone. It is a gift, one that cannot be earned. However, I do not believe as Cliffy posted above. Grave is not an "excuse to do what you wanna do when you wanna do it"

We are certainly not getting to Heaven on our own accord...if that was the case then Jesus died for nothing.

But there is a difference between that and the continual dumbing down on this grace only movement...whether we meant it to happen or not, it is being used to excuse sin. Man says, "if I have to sin then why even try to not sin?"

later...Cliffy

thejokeriv wrote:

I buy more into God's grace than sinners in the hands of an angry God. Sounds like Mike Lee may have bought into the reformed theology (which I have multiple issues with), don't know for sure since I haven't talked to him personally.

I talk to him several times a week and the only thing he's bought into is believing that the Bible is the inherent Word of God and that the picking and choosing of what to believe in it is what the problem is with modern day Christianity. He has chosen to no longer go only with only the niceties...but to live by the whole of it.

Is he passionate and brash and off putting from time to time about it? Well...I don't view him as being any more those things than the Word he ascribes to is.

later...Cliffy

Cliffy wrote:

thejokeriv wrote:

I buy more into God's grace than sinners in the hands of an angry God. Sounds like Mike Lee may have bought into the reformed theology (which I have multiple issues with), don't know for sure since I haven't talked to him personally.

I talk to him several times a week and the only thing he's bought into is believing that the Bible is the inherent Word of God and that the picking and choosing of what to believe in it is what the problem is with modern day Christianity. He has chosen to no longer go only with only the niceties...but to live by the whole of it.

Is he passionate and brash and off putting from time to time about it? Well...I don't view him as being any more those things than the Word he ascribes to is.

later...Cliffy

Right, but then you have the other three guys in BC who also believe that they are living the whole Word of God. Theology can get so deep, you can get lost in it. Rather, it should be Jesus crucified and risen. This is the good news. The Spirit does the sanctifying from the inside out. Outward appearances of holiness mean nothing.

Do you really believe that the other three members of Barren Cross and Pastor Bob are promoting a "sin all you wish" gospel? Having known Jim and Pastor Bob for many years, I dare say that isn't the case.

Also, the Bible may be brash and off putting, but where does the Bible tell us to be that way to our brothers and sister in Christ?

yeah, like the byzantine emperors..they messed with theology and thus they lost the empire...

Moronic!!!!!!!!! Why not play music to play music? Why do they HAVE to have a message that no one can agree on anyways? This is just dumb. DUMB!!! No one believes the exact same thing anyways, so what does it matter? They did it before and they could do it again, but they have to bring other things in to screw it all up.

This really shows that Christian Metal is often times a mockery of itself.

And I didn't mean to offend if I did.

Lurideath wrote:

And I didn't mean to offend if I did.

Nah...you're just venting.

Lurideath wrote:

Moronic!!!!!!!!! Why not play music to play music? Why do they HAVE to have a message that no one can agree on anyways? This is just dumb. DUMB!!! No one believes the exact same thing anyways, so what does it matter? They did it before and they could do it again, but they have to bring other things in to screw it all up.

This really shows that Christian Metal is often times a mockery of itself.

100% agreed.

ultmetal wrote:

Cliffy wrote:

thejokeriv wrote:

I buy more into God's grace than sinners in the hands of an angry God. Sounds like Mike Lee may have bought into the reformed theology (which I have multiple issues with), don't know for sure since I haven't talked to him personally.

I talk to him several times a week and the only thing he's bought into is believing that the Bible is the inherent Word of God and that the picking and choosing of what to believe in it is what the problem is with modern day Christianity. He has chosen to no longer go only with only the niceties...but to live by the whole of it.

Is he passionate and brash and off putting from time to time about it? Well...I don't view him as being any more those things than the Word he ascribes to is.

later...Cliffy

Right, but then you have the other three guys in BC who also believe that they are living the whole Word of God. Theology can get so deep, you can get lost in it. Rather, it should be Jesus crucified and risen. This is the good news. The Spirit does the sanctifying from the inside out. Outward appearances of holiness mean nothing.

Do you really believe that the other three members of Barren Cross and Pastor Bob are promoting a "sin all you wish" gospel? Having known Jim and Pastor Bob for many years, I dare say that isn't the case.

Also, the Bible may be brash and off putting, but where does the Bible tell us to be that way to our brothers and sister in Christ?

Ult,

I do not believe that the other three guys in BC or that Pastor Bob believe they're doing even the slightest thing wrong. I've also seen the things (and heard him explain it to me personally) that Mike writes on line. I, personally, think he should just blog on his own page and speak his own heart and mind and do it that way always, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a single thing that he says. Also, keep in mind, that from his perspective (perhaps a correct one) he is acting as Paul did with Peter several times...know what I'm saying? Mike absolutely loves all of those guys and he is personally upset with all of this. That doesn't mean he's necessarily always handling himself in the digital age in the best of ways...but many, MANY people had problems with the things that Jesus himself did and said as well as the rest of the disciples and apostles. Things that upset the status quo...whatever that SQ may be always bother people.

Do the things Mike say add up correctly with the whole word of God? I believe so. Can the same be truly said about the things that Pastor Bob has been blogging about for the past few months on his site? I can not in good conscience sit here and say that I believe they do. Grace doctrine is real and so is repentance...we are NOT extended God's grace without true repentance...period (well, other than being allowed to live and breathe and eat and laugh and for however long we get to on this earth).

later...Cliffy

Quote :

there is absolutely nothing wrong with a single thing that he says.

In your perspective...but not everyone agrees...not everyone even agrees on Scripture interpretation. So, you think he's right and others think he's wrong and the world keeps turning...