Black Sabbath - *The official thread*

manny wrote:

When I was a kid, I thought Bill Ward was unique, but I did not know a damn thing about jazz, or why he sounded different ( if that makes sense) to Vinnie Appice or Bev Bevan (who I saw live).

It was not til I saw him get interviewed on Metal Evolution that I understood how deep his drumming was tied to his jazz roots, I had no idea, I knew Iommi's roots in that musical genre but not Bill Ward's or Geezer Butler's for that matter.

It makes sense though if you think about it. Bill and those other guys SD mentioned (Ginger Baker, Charlie Watts, etc.) all grew up at a time when rock n roll was just starting out. Lemmy said it best in his book "I was born before rock n roll existed". There were no rules or style back then. Noone knew what "rock" drumming was supposed to sound like. They were all following in the footsteps of jazz drummers like Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa and then giving it their own spin.

Seems to me, noone was a "rock n roll drummer" until John Bonham came along and just pounded the ever loving crap outta his kit. And I don't mean that in any negative sort of way. Then you had a generation of drummers coming up in the 70's and 80's that used that as a basis for their technique.

Quote :

noone was a "rock n roll drummer" until John Bonham came along

I would argue Keith Moon preceded him.

SpectreFate wrote:

Quote :

noone was a "rock n roll drummer" until John Bonham came along

I would argue Keith Moon preceded him.

I would counter-argue that Keith Moon was over-rated and IMO more of a showman than a drummer. His wild antics, while amusing, overshadowed his drumming techique.

I'm also not a big fan of The Who, so my opinions, while always right, may be ever so slightly skewed.

Quote :

Keith Moon was over-rated

I would argue that may be, but ask any rock drummer of that era and I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the majority cite Keith Moon as a large influence.

Your opinions, while never right, are appreciated no matter how skewed towards the simian race they may be.

I like this game we're playing.

My knowledge of the Who's music is pretty much limited to their greatest hits. So while I'd agree that his latter output (70's) was more "bombastic" and rock-oriented, his early work in the 60's strick me as more, I dunno, reserved? Not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for. But his antics and showmanship more than made up for his technique back then.

John Bonham came right out the gate playing "rock". Keith progressed is what I'm getting at.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

My knowledge of the Who's music is pretty much limited to their greatest hits. So while I'd agree that his latter output (70's) was more "bombastic" and rock-oriented, his early work in the 60's strick me as more, I dunno, reserved? Not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for. But his antics and showmanship more than made up for his technique back then.

John Bonham came right out the gate playing "rock". Keith progressed is what I'm getting at.

Fair enough.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

SpectreFate wrote:

Quote :

noone was a "rock n roll drummer" until John Bonham came along

I would argue Keith Moon preceded him.

I would counter-argue that Keith Moon was over-rated and IMO more of a showman than a drummer. His wild antics, while amusing, overshadowed his drumming techique.

I'm also not a big fan of The Who, so my opinions, while always right, may be ever so slightly skewed.

I will agree that his self destructive lifestyle completely overshadows his skill as a drummer, but I thought was an incredible ball of energy, I am amazed the Who were able to that type drumming work, but it did. Listen to " I Can See for Miles" I amazed they could keep time with that insane drumming.

SpectreFate wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

My knowledge of the Who's music is pretty much limited to their greatest hits. So while I'd agree that his latter output (70's) was more "bombastic" and rock-oriented, his early work in the 60's strick me as more, I dunno, reserved? Not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for. But his antics and showmanship more than made up for his technique back then.

John Bonham came right out the gate playing "rock". Keith progressed is what I'm getting at.

Fair enough.

Thanks for playing. Rod, tell him what's he's won. Thanks Wink. We have some lovely parting gifts, including a year's supply of Turtle Wax and Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat. Tune in later today when SD wakes up and tells us why we're all wrong. Back to you, Wink.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

SpectreFate wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

My knowledge of the Who's music is pretty much limited to their greatest hits. So while I'd agree that his latter output (70's) was more "bombastic" and rock-oriented, his early work in the 60's strick me as more, I dunno, reserved? Not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for. But his antics and showmanship more than made up for his technique back then.

John Bonham came right out the gate playing "rock". Keith progressed is what I'm getting at.

Fair enough.

Thanks for playing. Rod, tell him what's he's won. Thanks Wink. We have some lovely parting gifts, including a year's supply of Turtle Wax and Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat. Tune in later today when SD wakes up and tells us why we're all wrong. Back to you, Wink.

I miss Tic Tac Dough.

They just don't make 'em like Wink Martindale anymore.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Tune in later today when SD wakes up and tells us why we're all wrong. Back to you, Wink.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Tune in later today when SD wakes up and tells us why we're all wrong. Back to you, Wink.

He's kind of like "The Rock" in a charming way. In other words, "Know your role and shut your mouth".

Well, if nothing else it seems I make an impact.

One influential drummer that hasn't been mentioned yet was Carmin Appice whose work with Vanilla Fudge was cited as a big influence on John Bonham. They never really broke here in the States so are essentially forgotten now, but Appice is generally considered one of the first "hard rock drummers".

The first wave of "ROCK" (not rock 'n' roll) musicians from the UK were all players who had to find their influences from a wide variety of musical genres. It was not uncommon for these musicians to sit in with artists from different styles, a jazz band one night, a blues group the next, a 50s style rock band the night after and some of them also spent time playing with symphonies. This required them to be very well-rounded musicians that were comfortable putting on different hats every night. This is why musicians from that era inspire me the most, because having that wide ranging set of tools to draw from made them very unique players when they started doing their own original music.

Once you got into the next wave of players from the mid 70s many of them were just drawing influences from ROCK, they weren't digging as deeply into other genres and thus the breadth of their musical knowledge wasn't nearly as vast. Not knocking that at all, I'm just more inspired when I listen to musicians that could obviously play comfortably in a wide range of settings.

S.D. wrote:

exact33 wrote:

yep but giving him a contract they know he wouldnt sign is not terribly honest.

With that line of thought it means the band never wanted Bill to participate so they purposely created an unfair contract they knew he wouldn't sign so he'd give up? I seriously doubt they would have bothered with a press conference featuring him which caused a years worth of bad publicity if they just didn't want him to do it.

Ward's reaction was strongly phrased in how inequitable the offer was. Unless he was being really greedy, I think the offer was a low ball.

S.D. wrote:

Well, if nothing else it seems I make an impact.

One influential drummer that hasn't been mentioned yet was Carmin Appice whose work with Vanilla Fudge was cited as a big influence on John Bonham. They never really broke here in the States so are essentially forgotten now, but Appice is generally considered one of the first "hard rock drummers".

The first wave of "ROCK" (not rock 'n' roll) musicians from the UK were all players who had to find their influences from a wide variety of musical genres. It was not uncommon for these musicians to sit in with artists from different styles, a jazz band one night, a blues group the next, a 50s style rock band the night after and some of them also spent time playing with symphonies. This required them to be very well-rounded musicians that were comfortable putting on different hats every night. This is why musicians from that era inspire me the most, because having that wide ranging set of tools to draw from made them very unique players when they started doing their own original music.

Once you got into the next wave of players from the mid 70s many of them were just drawing influences from ROCK, they weren't digging as deeply into other genres and thus the breadth of their musical knowledge wasn't nearly as vast. Not knocking that at all, I'm just more inspired when I listen to musicians that could obviously play comfortably in a wide range of settings.

ي تتحدث عنه؟ كارمين هو أعظم لاعب الدرامز ROCK أي وقت مضى! لا التقنية مثل بيرت، ولكن فتحا!

Yes, Carmen is a great drummer. Thank goodness for Google Translate.

S.D. wrote:

Yes, Carmen is a great drummer. Thank goodness for Google Translate.

I would say I can't believe you went through the hassle, but then again - you still owe me $8.50

Has anyone read this book...



I was in Barnes & Noble Monday night and saw this one. It looked pretty interesting in a trivia/stats-based sort of read. Maybe not interesting in a biography or tell-all. More like reading a book of baseball statistics.

There also seems to be a series of these types of books, based on other bands. Same format, but I saw Pink Floyd and The Beatles. Amazon also showed versions for Led Zeppelin and Kiss, maybe a few more.

Just wondering if anyone here has read the Sabbath one (or any others in the series) or has any comments, good, bad or indifferent.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Has anyone read this book...



I was in Barnes & Noble Monday night and saw this one. It looked pretty interesting in a trivia/stats-based sort of read. Maybe not interesting in a biography or tell-all. More like reading a book of baseball statistics.

There also seems to be a series of these types of books, based on other bands. Same format, but I saw Pink Floyd and The Beatles. Amazon also showed versions for Led Zeppelin and Kiss, maybe a few more.

Just wondering if anyone here has read the Sabbath one (or any others in the series) or has any comments, good, bad or indifferent.

Yeah, it's just a book of trivia and facts. I liked it and recommend it. I've read a number of Sabbath books and there was still some new info in it for me. Of course, most of the information will probably not be anything new to anyone who has been following the band for decades and decades. Still, I like Popoff and I like Sabbath so it seemed like a no-brainer.

I've been considering getting the KISS FAQ but that is the one band where I think I probably do know everything that has already been publicly disclosed.

Cool, thanks MM.

I might check out the Beatles one first, then move on to Sabbath, Floyd and Zeppelin. They're all relatively inexpensive on Amazon.

Geezer answered some questions...

Quote :

On BLACK SABBATH's new album title, "13":

Butler: "Well, it was sort of a temporary name, that we had something to refer to the album as, and I think it kind of stuck. But I don't know if that's gonna be the final title or not. [It was named partly because it's coming out in the year 2013] and originally, we were gonna put 13 tracks on the album. We ended up doing 16 tracks, so I'm not sure what's gonna on the album and what isn't."

Quote :

On having RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE's Brad Wilk play on the new BLACK SABBATH album:

Butler: "That was [producer] Rick Rubin's idea, 'cause he wanted to have… He didn't want a typical heavy metal drummer on the album, 'cause it's not really a heavy metal album; it's more of a rock… heavy rock. And Rick Rubin suggested having Brad, 'cause he's more in the vein of [original BLACK SABBATH drummer] Bill Ward. So we jammed with him and he sounded great with the stuff, so we went with that … It's sort of back to the way we used to be in the '70s; that's his feel — sort of a jazzy, bluesy feel to him, and that's the way the music is now. It was great working with him."

Quote :

On who the touring drummer will be:

Butler: "We haven't decided yet."

So there you have it.

Thanks for posting that. Sounds like they are going for more of their 70s era sound according to Butler, I couldn't be happier about that (well, except for bring Ward back of course).

He did a whole video interview with some reporter guy. I just plucked those few quotes that I thought were more relevent.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

He did a whole video interview with some reporter guy.

Girl*

Apparently, Rick Rubin's first choice for the drumming position was Ginger Baker

Quote :

For the band, Rubin's challenge to live up to their early sound was initially disorienting. "It was confusing," says Butler. "We had to unlearn everything we'd learned."

Sabbath did nix one of Rubin's requests: to fill the drum seat with the ever-volatile Ginger Baker. "I thought, 'Bloody hell?'" Iommi says. "I just couldn't see that." Rubin then suggested Wilk, who visited Osbourne's home and jammed with him, Iommi and Butler on Sabbath classics like "War Pigs." "I'd never heard louder instruments in my life," says the Rage drummer, who ended up playing on the whole album. "And I've played in some pretty loud bands."