Black Sabbath - *The official thread*

I'm looking forward to the new Black Sabbath album.

S.D. wrote:

I'm looking forward to the new Black Sabbath album.

Me too...I like the vibe of the tracks I've heard so far.

S.D. wrote:

I'm looking forward to the new Black Sabbath album.

Oh yeah! This is a thread about Black Sabbath isn't it? Silly me.

Looking forward to it too. As for Ozzy's performance, I won't be attending any concerts in the near future so as long as he sounds good on the album, that's all that matters.

It is actually, an interesting subject.

I was thinking about drummers and my favorites, which are Gar Samuelson, and more recently Ryan Van Poederooyen. I don't know jack about drumming or whether these two are technically excellent or poor, all I know is when I listen to them I think, 'that sounds really cool'. I was also mighty impressed with Nico McBrain's drumming on IM's cover of Hocus Pocus, it was the first time I'd ever really thought of Nico as a great drummer because all of my favorite Maiden stuff had Clive Burr on it. For all I actually know Lars Ulrich could be the most technically proficient drummer ever and it's only my opinion that he sounds like ass. So do we really know enough to make an informed appraisal of these guys craft?

Probably not. But we are all entitled to opinions, maybe we should just make it clear that that is what they are (which is what I think you are saying)


Oh yeah Sabbath, buying the record and that's it. I'm not wasting time and money on seeing Ozzy lurch around like a goon.

If a car was supposed to be red instead of blue, I'd question one's reading skills first. Ya know, then go and find out if it was painted well or not. Music is done with just one of the senses, the ears (mostly) unless it's hands on like playing and/or recordng. Car painting can be critiqued with the eyes and then ya can go over and rub your hand over the surface and feel something. So it's easier to be critical without even knowing anything about it as a personal skill set. You can see if they missed a coat or stopped 1/2 an inch below the fender well. You can feel if they failed to sand a quarter panel or whatever.

Shawn makes a valid point. Hands on makes a big difference in certain aspects of certain things. (focus on the term "certain") It's like the discussion of Dave Holland in another thread. Somebody can dig his playing cause of what they hear. Then I can come along with 40 years of playing drums and take it further by critiquing the actual ability player vs player. One can listen to a drummer, read a book on how to play drums and offer an opinion on drums perhaps ? While others can get behind a kit and play the song and then sit down and transcribe it measure by measure. Who is gonna have a more valid point of view ? The first person opinion is based on the "way" they play, while the second is based on "how"" they play. If you don't think there is a difference, then the point is rather moot.

Well here's an interesting take on why Ward's not behind the kit. Might be more than a money/contract thing...

Quote :

Ozzy Osbourne says he, Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler doubted that Bill Ward could play his full part in the Black Sabbath reunion.

And the singer has suggested that there was more to the drummer’s lack of involvement than a straightforward contract argument, observing that the drummer “can’t be surprised that he didn’t get the gig.”

Ward bowed out soon after the metal giants announced they’d be making a new album together. The project has continued without him and 13 – featuring Rage Against The Machine’s Brad Wilk behind the kit – is released on June 10.

Osbourne accepts part of Ward’s reason for declining to take part was indeed contractual: in 2012 he said he hadn’t been offered a deal he regarded as “signable.”

But the frontman tells Mojo, via Blabbermouth: “There was also another side to it. When Bill came along, we all had to ask, ‘Can he do an hour-and-a-half, two-hour gig? Can he cope?’

“My suggestion was that we run through a set and see how he got on. He was so out of condition – and the drummer is the most demanding job in the whole band.

“Bill couldn’t remember what the F*ck we were doing. You know them yellow stick-on memo notes? He had them all over his f*cking drums. I was like, ‘What the F*ck’s that for, Bill?’ He said, ‘I can’t remember what I’m doing.’

“I go, ‘How are you gonna remember out of those 500,000 bits of paper stuck all over your kit, which one you’re looking at, Bill?’ ‘I’ll know.’ ‘Ah, okay – great.’”

Osbourne further says that Ward didn’t discuss the matter with his bandmates – and things could have been different if he had. “He didn’t come clean and say, ‘I can’t cut this gig, but can we work something out, guys, where I’ll come on but with another drummer backing me up?’ Or, ‘I’ll come and play a few songs.’ That would have been cool.”

But that’s not to say the singer blames his old colleague. “I get where he’s coming from – his pride was hurt,” he reflects. “And I get it. I really do get it. The guy will always be a dear, dear friend and a brother to me.

“But he can’t be surprised that he didn’t get the gig. I’m not going to give Bill a hatchet job, but at the same time we haven’t got the patience to deal with it.”

Quote :

It's like the discussion of Dave Holland in another thread. Somebody can dig his playing cause of what they hear. Then I can come along with 40 years of playing drums and take it further by critiquing the actual ability player vs player.

I'm not a drummer but even I can tell that Dave Holland was the weakest one Priest ever had. He was just lucky to be there during their most successful commercial period.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Well here's an interesting take on why Ward's not behind the kit. Might be more than a money/contract thing...

Quote :

Ozzy Osbourne says he, Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler doubted that Bill Ward could play his full part in the Black Sabbath reunion.

And the singer has suggested that there was more to the drummer’s lack of involvement than a straightforward contract argument, observing that the drummer “can’t be surprised that he didn’t get the gig.”

Ward bowed out soon after the metal giants announced they’d be making a new album together. The project has continued without him and 13 – featuring Rage Against The Machine’s Brad Wilk behind the kit – is released on June 10.

Osbourne accepts part of Ward’s reason for declining to take part was indeed contractual: in 2012 he said he hadn’t been offered a deal he regarded as “signable.”

But the frontman tells Mojo, via Blabbermouth: “There was also another side to it. When Bill came along, we all had to ask, ‘Can he do an hour-and-a-half, two-hour gig? Can he cope?’

“My suggestion was that we run through a set and see how he got on. He was so out of condition – and the drummer is the most demanding job in the whole band.

“Bill couldn’t remember what the F*ck we were doing. You know them yellow stick-on memo notes? He had them all over his f*cking drums. I was like, ‘What the F*ck’s that for, Bill?’ He said, ‘I can’t remember what I’m doing.’

“I go, ‘How are you gonna remember out of those 500,000 bits of paper stuck all over your kit, which one you’re looking at, Bill?’ ‘I’ll know.’ ‘Ah, okay – great.’”

Osbourne further says that Ward didn’t discuss the matter with his bandmates – and things could have been different if he had. “He didn’t come clean and say, ‘I can’t cut this gig, but can we work something out, guys, where I’ll come on but with another drummer backing me up?’ Or, ‘I’ll come and play a few songs.’ That would have been cool.”

But that’s not to say the singer blames his old colleague. “I get where he’s coming from – his pride was hurt,” he reflects. “And I get it. I really do get it. The guy will always be a dear, dear friend and a brother to me.

“But he can’t be surprised that he didn’t get the gig. I’m not going to give Bill a hatchet job, but at the same time we haven’t got the patience to deal with it.”

You gotta be f*cking kidding me. Ozzy suggesting someone isn't in shape to be in a band? I hate that f*cker.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Quote :

It's like the discussion of Dave Holland in another thread. Somebody can dig his playing cause of what they hear. Then I can come along with 40 years of playing drums and take it further by critiquing the actual ability player vs player.

I'm not a drummer but even I can tell that Dave Holland was the weakest one Priest ever had. He was just lucky to be there during their most successful commercial period.

He was the weakest to be sure. But there is a small circle of us who really dig how he played, especially on Vengeance. Anyway, about that Ozzy fellow...

Ozzy does have a valid point, like him or hate him, even whether or not he's telling the truth. Drumming is the most demanding and taxing position in rock n' roll, and I've been wondering for a while about Bill's stamina. Sabbath has freaking long songs--longer in concert--with all sorts of changes in tempo and style, and I imagine the set is going to be fairly epic. Ozzy may be out of shape but really all he has to do is stand there and sing half-assed.

At least Ozzy was kind about it all and offered up another angle rather than display the whole "Ward is a greedy bastard" banner like we've been seeing.

Most importantly, though, taking Bill out of the photos on the band website was a shameful move and gets me red. Not fair, not cool.

Quote :

Most importantly, though, taking Bill out of the photos on the band website was a shameful move and gets me red. Not fair, not cool.

That was at Bill's request.

SpectreFate wrote:

Quote :

Most importantly, though, taking Bill out of the photos on the band website was a shameful move and gets me red. Not fair, not cool.

That was at Bill's request.

Damn I had not heard about that. News articles were making it sound like Sabbath's decision. I'd like to retract my statement regarding this, then.

SpectreFate wrote:

You gotta be f*cking kidding me. Ozzy suggesting someone isn't in shape to be in a band? I hate that f*cker.

X 2

If Tony or Geezer come forward and say that Bill wasn't up for the tour then I'll believe it.

Tony's version of the Bill Ward saga...

Quote :

Black Sabbath guitarist Tony Iommi pulled the plug on negotiations with Bill Ward because he feared he was running out of time to make the band’s reunion album.

The guitarist was diagnosed with cancer soon after the band announced plans to make their first record with Ozzy Osbourne since 1978.

And with memories of Ronnie James Dio’s death in his mind, he decided he couldn’t continue negotiations with drummer Ward, who said he hadn’t been offered a contract he regarded as “signable.”

Iommi tells Guitar World: “Once I heard ‘cancerous lymphoma,’ I thought, ‘That’s it. I’ve had it.’

“We waited a long time for Bill and we wanted to sort it out. But at the end of the day, especially after I was diagnosed, I thought, ‘F*cking hell, that’s it – we’ve got to get a move on. I might pop off next year!’

“So I emailed him and said, ‘Bill, we can’t wait any longer. We’ve got to get on with it.’ And that was it.”

Tony just didn't want to wait around. Nothing about Bill's inability to play, according to Ozzy.

Boris2008 wrote:

SpectreFate wrote:

You gotta be f*cking kidding me. Ozzy suggesting someone isn't in shape to be in a band? I hate that f*cker.

X 2

it is rather ironic coming from ozzy.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Tony's version of the Bill Ward saga...

Quote :

Black Sabbath guitarist Tony Iommi pulled the plug on negotiations with Bill Ward because he feared he was running out of time to make the band’s reunion album.

The guitarist was diagnosed with cancer soon after the band announced plans to make their first record with Ozzy Osbourne since 1978.

And with memories of Ronnie James Dio’s death in his mind, he decided he couldn’t continue negotiations with drummer Ward, who said he hadn’t been offered a contract he regarded as “signable.”

Iommi tells Guitar World: “Once I heard ‘cancerous lymphoma,’ I thought, ‘That’s it. I’ve had it.’

“We waited a long time for Bill and we wanted to sort it out. But at the end of the day, especially after I was diagnosed, I thought, ‘F*cking hell, that’s it – we’ve got to get a move on. I might pop off next year!’

“So I emailed him and said, ‘Bill, we can’t wait any longer. We’ve got to get on with it.’ And that was it.”

Tony just didn't want to wait around. Nothing about Bill's inability to play, according to Ozzy.

Could have just been Ozzy's perspective...Bill has had health problems on past tours preventing him from playing full shows and he's only gotten older. Also, perhaps Ozzy did not want to speak for Tony.

Ozzy is being smart, no one speaks for Iommi!

I honestly don't see anything wrong with what Ozzy is saying. It's just a matter of perspective.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Tony's version of the Bill Ward saga...

Quote :

Black Sabbath guitarist Tony Iommi pulled the plug on negotiations with Bill Ward because he feared he was running out of time to make the band’s reunion album.

The guitarist was diagnosed with cancer soon after the band announced plans to make their first record with Ozzy Osbourne since 1978.

And with memories of Ronnie James Dio’s death in his mind, he decided he couldn’t continue negotiations with drummer Ward, who said he hadn’t been offered a contract he regarded as “signable.”

Iommi tells Guitar World: “Once I heard ‘cancerous lymphoma,’ I thought, ‘That’s it. I’ve had it.’

“We waited a long time for Bill and we wanted to sort it out. But at the end of the day, especially after I was diagnosed, I thought, ‘F*cking hell, that’s it – we’ve got to get a move on. I might pop off next year!’

“So I emailed him and said, ‘Bill, we can’t wait any longer. We’ve got to get on with it.’ And that was it.”

Tony just didn't want to wait around. Nothing about Bill's inability to play, according to Ozzy.

Tony's take makes me sad to know that he's reaching the end. I don't see anything wrong with what Ozzy said. These guys are old now and doing an album and tour is quite a task even if they were all in perfect health. Tony wants to make it to the end and go out on a high. From what I've heard so far, I think he'll do that.

If you've heard some of the interviews w/Bill over the years, the dood is a bit out there, perhaps the deal he was offered wasn't all that bad, just Bill being Bill...

corplhicks wrote:

I honestly don't see anything wrong with what Ozzy is saying. It's just a matter of perspective.

The problem I have with what Ozzy said (if it is indeed true) is that it's not Ozzy's place to make that sort of statement. Yea, we can all joke about the irony of Ozzy making that kind of assesment, but let Bill decide if he wants everyone to know that he can't play. He could have gone out on a high note, somewhat, but now it's casting doubts on his abilities and health.

Up to that point, all we knew about the situation was a contract dispute. Now we can all speculate if Bill's a tired old man that can't play anymore or it was just about money. Or both. And Tony thinking this could be his last hurrah. It's all kind of depressing.

Tony's thoughts on Rick Rubin...

Quote :

“I didn’t quite know what to make of Rick at first. His whole idea was, ‘Write the song. Call me when you think it’s ready.’ So I would. Actually, I’d email him, because I couldn’t phone him – nobody phones him. So I’d email him: ‘Do you want to come down tonight?’ And he’d pop in, have a listen, go, ‘Yeah, I like that,’ or, ‘I don’t like it.’

We wanted him to be more involved but he was this elusive guy that we never really saw. But when we started recording, he was there all the time, lying on the bed with the microphone. Blimey, what a strange guy!”

Based on "God is Dead?" I have severely low expectations for this new album. Hopefully some of the other tracks will be better. And the music to GiD isn't really too bad, but I do not care for the vocals. At all.

I hope we won't be disappointed with this new release.

Ozzy's vocals are below average.