Black Sabbath - *The official thread*

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Could you image the stink that would cause in the "metal" community if a non-rock guy was hired to play drums for Sabbath? For starters, the servers for Blabbermouth would burst into flames from all the indignant 14 year olds.

I'm sure, but those kids aren't smart enough to realize that Ward was really a jazz player in a heavy rock band. Just as they wouldn't recognize the same holds true for Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Charlie Watts and Ginger Baker (among many others).

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Brad Wilk will get paid flat union scale as a session player.

Aside from that he will receive performance royalties from album sales unless forfit via contract. Not nearly as lucrative as publishing royalties but still more than just session pay.

I did session work (playing and programed) on a couple of Regency/Pakaderm projects and got paid a flat rate and years later received a lil check from a publishing company for performers royalties.

He will also get paid as a touring musician, what that amount will be is gonna be determined by all parties involved and perspective management. (no conjecture there)

I have always said that Sabbath shouldn't go with the traditional "metal" drummer. Why I thought the guy who played with them recently was a bad choice. Ward is unique in his style due to that heavy jazz influence. Kinda/sorta like Ian paice from Purple.....and the guys you mentioned above as well.

I actually think getting Ian Paice for the recording would have been an amazing choice, of course he's currently in the studio with Deep Purple so the schedule wouldn't have worked out. Paice played on the re-recording of "Trashed" that Gillan & Iommi did together and sounded amazing.

You're correct about performance royalties, though they don't amount to a whole lot. I haven't heard anything about Wilk touring, as of yet they have indicated he was brought in only to do the album.

At first I thought it was a weird choice to bring in Wilk, but if you listen to those Rage and Audioslave, the man plays with a bit of swing, not just your average heavy hitting drummer.

If I was Wilk, a tour commitment would've been included in the contract for recording the album. Quite sure, a Sabbath tour would be way more lucrative than anything else he'd be doing. That way nobody could change their mind.

Yeah Ian Paice on that would absolutely rule! Jason Bonham could also be a good choice!

It's hard to say what "style" of playing the drummer has or doesn't have is relevant untill we hear the type of music that Tony and Geezer have written.


"Mob Rules" for example is more "metal" sounding than it's predecessor "Heaven and Hell" which was a "heavy" record. Which reflected the style of playing that Appice had as opposed to Ward.

The Tony Martin stuff is written different than either the Ozzy or Dio stuff for other obvious reasons aside from who sat on the drum stool.

The interesting thing about the Heaven and Hell (band) stuff is that it was written with elements of both Ozzy and Dio era style.

So another question is how does the writing style taken give reason to whom was chosen ?

James B. wrote:

So another question is how does the writing style taken give reason to whom was chosen ?

My guess is the drum rehearsals were done by having the prospective players jam to demos of the new material and they chose the best fit for what they were doing.

S.D. wrote:

James B. wrote:

So another question is how does the writing style taken give reason to whom was chosen ?

My guess is the drum rehearsals were done by having the prospective players jam to demos of the new material and they chose the best fit for what they were doing.

makes perfect sense

I would've really dug to have had a chance to audition. I know wishful thinking

S.D. wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Could you image the stink that would cause in the "metal" community if a non-rock guy was hired to play drums for Sabbath? For starters, the servers for Blabbermouth would burst into flames from all the indignant 14 year olds.

I'm sure, but those kids aren't smart enough to realize that Ward was really a jazz player in a heavy rock band. Just as they wouldn't recognize the same holds true for Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Charlie Watts and Ginger Baker (among many others).

So is Peter Criss. And we saw how well that turned out.

Hey, if the end result is a good album, I'm happy. Shame things couldn't work with Bill, but I'm sure that Wilk guy will do a fine job.

S.D. wrote:

This is conjecture central in this thread.

Of course. Hence my "I would not be surprised if..." precursor.

I was just laying out there that it's unlikely Sharon fired Bill.

If 'conjecture" didn't exist than why would we post on internet forums ?

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I was just laying out there that it's unlikely Sharon fired Bill.

I completely agree with you.

Bill has stated that he was offered a contract which he declined to sign, so in reality nobody fired anybody, he just chose not to participate.

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Bill has stated that he was offered a contract which he declined to sign, so in reality nobody fired anybody, he just chose not to participate.

duh

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I'm glad they didn't go with that Clueless fella, but how do you know this info? I'd like to think the guys in Sabbath had a say in who their drummer is going to be, but has this been stated as fact somewhere? Just wonderin'

The info comes from the same inside source that announced Brad Wilk as the drummer nearly 2 months ago on the Iommi forums.

Ozzy is more capable and devious than people believe and he happily hides behind his wife, or so some have claimed. Which wouldn't surprise me at all. Either way, I expect this album to completely suck ass. That way, if it's a good one like the latest Van Halen, I will be pleasantly surprised.

Maybe they should get Lars! At least he would get a decent deal out of Sharon and he is most definitely NOT a jazz drummer

S.D. wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I was just laying out there that it's unlikely Sharon fired Bill.

I completely agree with you.

Bill has stated that he was offered a contract which he declined to sign, so in reality nobody fired anybody, he just chose not to participate.

yep but giving him a contract they know he wouldnt sign is not terribly honest.

exact33 wrote:

yep but giving him a contract they know he wouldnt sign is not terribly honest.

With that line of thought it means the band never wanted Bill to participate so they purposely created an unfair contract they knew he wouldn't sign so he'd give up? I seriously doubt they would have bothered with a press conference featuring him which caused a years worth of bad publicity if they just didn't want him to do it.

James B. wrote:

I did session work (playing and programed) on a couple of Regency/Pakaderm projects and got paid a flat rate and years later received a lil check from a publishing company for performers royalties.

.

What did you play on? Some of us here probably have the albums in our collections

S.D. wrote:

exact33 wrote:

yep but giving him a contract they know he wouldnt sign is not terribly honest.

With that line of thought it means the band never wanted Bill to participate so they purposely created an unfair contract they knew he wouldn't sign so he'd give up? I seriously doubt they would have bothered with a press conference featuring him which caused a years worth of bad publicity if they just didn't want him to do it.

Yeah, there's no way they intentionally pushed him out. Tony & Geezer & Ozzy all agreed on whatever came up...Bill didn't.

BUT - I think they should have all done SOMETHING to make sure all 4 were on board other than the "aw, come on Bill..." thing.

S.D. is right...if they never wanted him to do it, they would have had someone else from the start.

With the passing of time, I don't see this situation as anyone pushing Bill out. I see it as a situation of 3 out of 4 guys agreeing to certain terms. Then I see the 3 who agree unwilling to compromise or restructure the terms to accommodate the 4th. It's a shame...because they should all go out together. But there's nothing I can do about it.

This is the same as the Van Halen reunion with no Michael Anthony. It's nice, but nobody is really satisfied and it's not a real reunion. Ultimately, it's shortsighted not to have Bill on board because you will make less money without him. A percentage of fans will stay away or not buy the album without Bill on it.

I just hope the new album is better than the two tracks from the "reunion" live album which sounded like Ozzy leftovers.

James B. wrote:

Sabbath hasn't made a good drummer choice since Bill left after recording and doing a partial tour for "Heaven and Hell". IMHDO, of course

What's so bad about Eric Singer (other then he played on two of the more boring BS-albums) and Bobby Rondinelli?
Vinny Apice is always discussed, i don't think he's horrible, just maybe a bit boring.
Cozy was of course the best Sabbath drummer after Ward.
Overall i don't think the drummers were so bad

Witchfinder wrote:

I just hope the new album is better than the two tracks from the "reunion" live album which sounded like Ozzy leftovers.

It will sound different at least but honestly, my anticipation of that album is quite low. No Ward and instead a bad drummer and Rubin as producer, which will either make the album sound extremely loud or extremely dry (i'm not a fan of this guy)

And why is the album called 13?

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What's so bad about Eric Singer (other then he played on two of the more boring BS-albums) and Bobby Rondinelli?
Vinny Apice is always discussed, i don't think he's horrible, just maybe a bit boring.
Cozy was of course the best Sabbath drummer after Ward.
Overall i don't think the drummers were so bad

My overlooking of Cozy has already been discussed. I rarely listen to the Martin fronted stuff and consider them to be Iommi solo albums. (though they technically are not)

The other guys you mentioned may have playing skills but they are not "right" for the groove and feel associated with Sabbath. IMHO

examples....Appice, he plays behind the riff and follows the band instead of leading them.
Rondinelli, good at copying other peoples stuff but lacks any personality or originality in his playing Singer, excellent drummer but too metal for Sabbath. By metal, I mean he has the tendacy to be too busy for the songs at times.

so I hope i explained my perspective in a way that is understood. The drummers may not be terrible drummers in their own right. They were not right for Sabbath. Thus my opinion of them being poor choices.

When I was a kid, I thought Bill Ward was unique, but I did not know a damn thing about jazz, or why he sounded different ( if that makes sense) to Vinnie Appice or Bev Bevan (who I saw live).

It was not til I saw him get interviewed on Metal Evolution that I understood how deep his drumming was tied to his jazz roots, I had no idea, I knew Iommi's roots in that musical genre but not Bill Ward's or Geezer Butler's for that matter.