Iced Earth, interview with about Tim Owens

Because I am tired and lazy, I am basically jsut going to say that I echo everything Eyesore has said. The man knows his Iced Earth.

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's definitely a time for line-up changes. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be talking about ICED EARTH because they would still be on their original vocalist Gene Adams and wouldn't be even half as popular.

DEATH benefited greatly from its many lineup changes.

Scott Travis gave JUDAS PRIEST a much-needed boost as well.

I don't see why people assume a new lineup can't have a great chemistry as well.

I will agree that if Iced Earth had stayed with the original vocalist there popularity would be reduced by half. Death did not benefit from all the line up changes, Death benefited because Chuck got better as a musician and songwriter. Death was Chuck's vision similar to what Iced Earth is Jon's vision.

The changes that Judas Priest (at least in the Scott Travis case) and Death made where not in the vocalist dept. When you change singers you change the chemistry of the band, and like it or not people tend to have an emotional attachment to certain lineups and that is especially true of vocalists.

Look at the debates regarding vocal line up changes that have raged on for 20 years or more, David Lee Roth vs Sammy Hagar, Bon Scott or Brian Johnson, what happened to the careers of Genesis when Phil Collins quit, etc It doesn't mean the music is terrible but it does change the audience perception of the band.

I am sure Yngwie Malmsteen would have had a bigger fanbase if had been able to keep Joe Lynn Turner or Jeff Scott Soto for more than a handful of releases, but IMO the amount of turnover in the vocal dept, hurt his commerical success.

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's definitely a time for line-up changes. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be talking about ICED EARTH because they would still be on their original vocalist Gene Adams and wouldn't be even half as popular.

Good point. Hahahaha, Gene Adam... good grief, how tone deaf was that guy? He sounded like David Wayne with a sinus infection.

Read this whole thread. Some points.

1. I love the first Iced Earth CD and their demo. He wasn't a bad singer IMO. However, I do agree that Barlow was the right man for the job and improved the band.

2. Speaking from a band that has gone through a number of drummers, guitarists and bassists, I can agree that there is a chemistry that changes when members come and go. However, sometimes new members improve the chemistry. We've had a number of bassists over the years, but with Rob Whitlock we've found a guy that IS Ultimatum. We've never had a guy in the band before that quite fit into the puzzle like him. As well, we've had four different drummers over the years. When Sean left there was definitely a change in chemistry. However, Alan has brought in a different chemistry into the band. I'm not saying it's better or worse than Sean, but definitely different. I see that as a positive thing.

3. Jon Schaffer is the alpha male in Iced Earth. If I was to join that band, I would indeed take pride in my work, but at the same time I could see how not having any creative input could wear on an artist.

4. The last few Iced Earth CDs have not been great IMO. I don't think it has anything to do with the chemistry of the band, or Tim as a singer, but rather it's just where Jon Schaffer is at right now artistically. He's moved away from the speed metal, thrash, etc. and seems content to write stories and wrap the music around those stories.

Burnt Offerings was their Rust in Peace. they haven't been able to top it imho.

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's definitely a time for line-up changes. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be talking about ICED EARTH because they would still be on their original vocalist Gene Adams and wouldn't be even half as popular.

DEATH benefited greatly from its many lineup changes.

Scott Travis gave JUDAS PRIEST a much-needed boost as well.

I don't see why people assume a new lineup can't have a great chemistry as well.

I think the Priest example is a bad one. Priest still have 4 of the original 5 members in the band. Many bands out there are going to have a change here or there. It's the bands like Iced Earth, Megadeth, or Exodus that have had numerous changes, and at this time only have one original member.

The core of Judas Priest have always been Halford, Tipton, and KK, so as long as they're in the mix, then no worries.

[quote]I think the Priest example is a bad one. Priest still have 4 of the original 5 members in the band.[/quote]

3 of the original 5. Halford isn't the original singer, that was Al Atkins.

spectrefate wrote:

3 of the original 5. Halford isn't the original singer, that was Al Atkins.

...and even though he didn't record anything with Priest, Al's been pimping that ever-so-slight connection to them ever since.

spectrefate wrote:

Quote :

I think the Priest example is a bad one. Priest still have 4 of the original 5 members in the band.

3 of the original 5. Halford isn't the original singer, that was Al Atkins.

Halford is the original Priest singer. If Al had sang on even one Priest recording you might have a case for that. Halford is as much the core of Priest as Tipton, Downing or Hill.

Al named the band and sang on their demo. Original singer. True about the core of Priest, but it wasn't always that way.

spectrefate wrote:

Al named the band and sang on their demo. Original singer. True about the core of Priest, but it wasn't always that way.

I don't have a problem with Al saying he was a part of Priest. He did have a part in their history. What part did Al Atkins play in Priest's massive worldwide success, their many years together or their overall sound and influence in heavy metal? He really didn't have any. Halford was the original. It was Halford's voice that helped give the band their charisma. He sang on the first official Priest recording so therefore he is one of the original Judas Priest members.

Aerosmith had a different guitar player before Brad Whitford joined. I'm sure he recorded some demos or something with the band. Does that mean that Brad Whitford isn't one of the original Aerosmith members, even though he played on their first official record back in '73 and just about every one after that?

Ultimatum performed three shows and recorded them with Robert on vocals before I joined the band. Does that mean I am not the original Ultimatum vocalist? I sang on every Ultimatum release so far.

Molly Hatchet had several vocalists before Danny Joe Brown, but Brown is the one who ultimately sang on the band's first album and helped give the band their success and their sound. I've never heard any of the pre-Brown vocalists out there trying to live off the Molly Hatchet name or claiming they are the original vocalist.

Lynyrd Skynyrd claim to only have two original members in their band (Gary Rossington & Billy Powell) even though Ricky Medlock is playing guitar with them. Medlock had originally played with Skynyrd before their first official album for MCA. He played drums and sang vocals on the historic Muscle Shoals demos. Why doesn't the band include him as an "original member"?

Quote :

Does that mean that Brad Whitford isn't one of the original Aerosmith members

Yes, it does

Quote :

Does that mean I am not the original Ultimatum vocalist? I sang on every Ultimatum release so far.

Yes, it does.

I'm not denying Brad Whitford is the definitive guitarist (other than Perry) in Aerosmith, and I am definitely not trying to diminish your importance within your own band. I'd be an idiot to say such stuff. But you can't just sweep part of a band's history under the rug and imagine it didn't happen. If the band chooses to do that, that's their choice, but it doesn't change facts.

A couple of other examples...

Tracii Guns as an original member of GNR?

Ron McGovney and Dave Mustaine? Original members of Metallica?

I have to agree with ULT on this one way Spec, AC/DC had a vocalist before Bon Scott named Dave Evans who was fired to make way for Bon Scott. For years Dave Evans has been using his some amount of time with AC/DC to further his career. He did record on few demos and a single of "Can I sit Next to You, Girl" but AC/DC's original singer is Bon Scott, it was he who helped put AC/DC on the map and if they held on Dave Evans they wouldnot have made it out of bars they were playing in.

Dave Evans may deserve a small mention in the history of AC/DC since he appeared on a single and their first television appearance, but AC/DC's original frontman is Bon Scott. Same thing with Alan Atkins, he was there during Judas Priest's formative days but it was Rob Halford that they made their first official recordings with. The Priest did record song co written by Atkins "Victim of Changes" but if the Priest had retained him over Halford metal history would not be the same.

I don't agree with an original member of a band using that fact for notoriety, but it doesn't change anything about Priest. Al Atkins cowrote several songs that Priest continued to play early in their career. I don't care for the man's music or the fact that he is calling himself the original singer to gain something from it, but it doesn't change facts.

spectrefate wrote:

Quote :

Does that mean that Brad Whitford isn't one of the original Aerosmith members

Yes, it does

Quote :

Does that mean I am not the original Ultimatum vocalist? I sang on every Ultimatum release so far.

Yes, it does.

I'm not denying Brad Whitford is the definitive guitarist (other than Perry) in Aerosmith, and I am definitely not trying to diminish your importance within your own band. I'd be an idiot to say such stuff. But you can't just sweep part of a band's history under the rug and imagine it didn't happen. If the band chooses to do that, that's their choice, but it doesn't change facts.

A couple of other examples...

Tracii Guns as an original member of GNR?

Ron McGovney and Dave Mustaine? Original members of Metallica?

I see what you are saying but I guess we just have different points of view on the matter. I don't see Ron McGovney or Dave Mustaine as part of the core or original members of Metallica. Those four guys that recorded those first three albums will always be the original members of Metallica. Same with Slash and GNR. I'm not denying their place in the band's history, just saying they are not the core of those bands.

Same thing with Chuck Billy and Testament. He will always be their original vocalist, even though Souza sang with them on some demos. Souza plays a part in the band's history and obviously the band doesn't deny that, but no one would ever say that Billy isn't the original Testament vocalist and part of the core of that band.

spectrefate wrote:

Quote :

I think the Priest example is a bad one. Priest still have 4 of the original 5 members in the band.

3 of the original 5. Halford isn't the original singer, that was Al Atkins.

If you want to get real technical only 2, Ian Hill and KK. Tipton didnt come on board until the same time Halford did just about.

I don't understand the idea the Tim didn't fit with IE. I love The Glorious Burden, he owns on that album. I like both Matt and Tim and think Jon just needs to say he treated Tim badly. Having Matt back didn't put them back on par with their older stuff.

[quote]Same thing with Chuck Billy and Testament. He
will always be their original vocalist, even though Souza sang with
them on some demos. [/quote]

I agree with this, but you can argue that the band was called "Legacy" and not Testament with Souza.

But you're right, we just see things differently. I don't deny what you are referring to as "core" members, there's no doubt there.

I wouldn't use the word "original" when referring to Rob Halford, or some of the names that were mentioned. They were the definitive members. Original is the 1st, not always a definitive.

OK I will agree with your point Lurideath, definitive members is a better word to use than original when referring Rob Halford and Bon Scott respectively

MetalRob331 wrote:

I just feel Jon needs to step up to the plate and say "hey look i'm not the easiest to work with. but i know what i want".

He says that all the time.

I agree with Spec here. Of course Dave was an original member of Metalica! Heck, his songs are featured on 3 of their albums! Same goes for Al Atkins in Priest. He even gave the band their name.

manny wrote:

I have to agree with ULT on this one way Spec, AC/DC had a vocalist before Bon Scott named Dave Evans who was fired to make way for Bon Scott. For years Dave Evans has been using his some amount of time with AC/DC to further his career. He did record on few demos and a single of "Can I sit Next to You, Girl" but AC/DC's original singer is Bon Scott, it was he who helped put AC/DC on the map and if they held on Dave Evans they wouldnot have made it out of bars they were playing in.

Dave Evans may deserve a small mention in the history of AC/DC since he appeared on a single and their first television appearance, but AC/DC's original frontman is Bon Scott. Same thing with Alan Atkins, he was there during Judas Priest's formative days but it was Rob Halford that they made their first official recordings with. The Priest did record song co written by Atkins "Victim of Changes" but if the Priest had retained him over Halford metal history would not be the same.

That doesn't make sense. If you have a child that is stillborn or dies shortly after birth, do you consider your next child that lives to be your first child? Bon Scott was not AC/DCs original vocalist. It's factually impossible.

Whilst I can kind of understand Ult's logic, I'm inclined to say that the original members refer to the person who first took said position. Dave Mustaine is the original guitarist for Metallica, for instance. It wouldn't make sense to say Kirk Hammet is the original lead guitarist... because he isn't. A band's history doesn't begin with their debut album.

NumbskullakaNazgul wrote:

I don't understand the idea the Tim didn't fit with IE. I love The Glorious Burden, he owns on that album. I like both Matt and Tim and think Jon just needs to say he treated Tim badly. Having Matt back didn't put them back on par with their older stuff.

I personally maintain that The Glorious Burden is Iced Earth's weakest release, partially due to somewhat mediocre song writing and partially due to Tim not fitting the material. I found it a bit of a jarring listen, although it certainly has a few moments of greatness. I really don't think Jon treated Tim badly, as earlier pointed out, Tim seemed a bit disinterested with IE, claiming it as "Jon's thing" and unwilling to talk about it that much. Jon really did speak highly of him when he was in the band, and still does, stating how great a vocalist he thinks he was. However, if Jon feels that someone's not all that involved in IE, I can understand why he'd let them go for someone who may have more passion. Afterall, that's what happened when Tim came in to the band.

Eyesore wrote:

manny wrote:

I have to agree with ULT on this one way Spec, AC/DC had a vocalist before Bon Scott named Dave Evans who was fired to make way for Bon Scott. For years Dave Evans has been using his some amount of time with AC/DC to further his career. He did record on few demos and a single of "Can I sit Next to You, Girl" but AC/DC's original singer is Bon Scott, it was he who helped put AC/DC on the map and if they held on Dave Evans they wouldnot have made it out of bars they were playing in.

Dave Evans may deserve a small mention in the history of AC/DC since he appeared on a single and their first television appearance, but AC/DC's original frontman is Bon Scott. Same thing with Alan Atkins, he was there during Judas Priest's formative days but it was Rob Halford that they made their first official recordings with. The Priest did record song co written by Atkins "Victim of Changes" but if the Priest had retained him over Halford metal history would not be the same.

That doesn't make sense. If you have a child that is stillborn or dies shortly after birth, do you consider your next child that lives to be your first child? Bon Scott was not AC/DCs original vocalist. It's factually impossible.

The problem with this logic is that most bands then would have few, if any, original members. At the time of the first Molly Hatchet album, Dave Hlubeck would be the only original member. Glenn Tipton would be the only original member of Judas Priest, Rudolf Schenker would be the only original member of the Scorpions, etc. Paul Di'Anno is not the original vocalist for Iron Maiden. Paul Day Dennis Wilcock would be. I've never, ever heard anyone call Bon Scott anything but the band's original vocalist, including the band themselves. Udo is not the original vocalist for Accept, it was that dude that sang with them in the garage for four months. Most bands starting off go through various members before the line-up clicks right. The first album is usually where the origins of the "original line-up" goes IMO.