Iced Earth, interview with about Tim Owens

Jeffrey Easton of Metal Exiles recently conducted an interview with ICED EARTH mainman Jon Schaffer. A couple of excerpts from the chat follow below.

Metal Exiles: You mentioned consistency with your record labels so you could release the records right. What about consistency between "Framing Armageddon" and "The Crucible of Man" with [former singer] Tim "Ripper" Owens doing one and [current vocalist] Matt Barlow doing the other?

Jon: Things happen. Tim was great to work with in the studio and from a stand point of performing live he was great as far as being an incredible vocalist but he was not a true believer in this band. It was a job for him and ICED EARTH is not about that. The guys that were in the band before Matt were true believers in the band and the crowds went ape smurf poo for them and there was a good feeling on stage. That was the thing that was missing and it became apparent to me that a change was going to have to be made. A change was coming regardless but it just so happened that Matt and I spoke after we did the European "Framing" tour and the first thing that we spoke about was doing a project together. As the conversation continued, why do a side project when we can just do ICED EARTH together?! This was not something that was planned and within two or three days from our conversation a decision was made. I was not vetting this out for months. As a composer, this does not change things for me much. I know some people will have trouble getting their heads around that but to me the voice is another instrument and when I write these parts I am writing for the song. I do not write for a singer, a singer must be able to deliver my songs. I do not sit around worrying about my material and by working with guys of this caliber they will be able to deliver what it is as a writer I require otherwise they would not get the gig.

Metal Exiles: So the passion for the band was missing from Tim?

Jon: Only from a performance standpoint because in the studio we did great stuff. He was more interested in doing his solo thing, that was where his head was at and it was becoming more and more obvious. This band was a means to an end for him.

Metal Exiles: ICED EARTH was a paycheck?

Jon: Absolutely, and that is not what ICED EARTH is about. I wish Tim all the best in the world, I am a big fan of his voice and I love the records that we did together. In a way it works anyway because "Framing" is the precursor to the birth of Set and "Crucible" is Set and it is mostly from his perspective so in a sense Framing is telling the prophecy and "Crucible" is Set.

Metal Exiles: You have the Tim Owens thing but you have always had a revolving door. Do you think that has affected ICED EARTH at all or is it all Jon Schaffer's vision?

Jon: ICED EARTH is a vehicle for my songs, that is all it has ever been. People follow a band so they have this fantasy about how a band operates and how it must be but 99% of the time it is all horseshit because they do not know what the reality of it is. I did not start this band to be some egomaniacal rock star, I do not give a Smurf about that. I do not give a Smurf about being a guitar hero, those are not my goals. The guitar is a tool to write songs and ICED EARTH is a vehicle for my compositions. It has also been a series struggle especially in those first 13 years with Century Media. It was a situation that most bands would have broken up under. These are all things that people do not know about and they make judgments about them and it does not bother me. Anybody that has worked with me knows that I am very fair and loyal but there is a point that I do not put up with anybody's ox manour. At the end of the day it does not make a big difference. It has everything to do with management, record companies, booking agents, publishers. Those are the four things that matters with a bands success. It has nothing to do with Joe Blow on the drums, bass or guitar, it does not matter. If the machine is there and the product is there, which it always has been and every ICED EARTH album has sold well regardless of who is in the band. People in the industry know that the record is going to sell well anyway. It is one of those things that does not concern me and no it is not all about me but it is all about my songs.

Read the entire interview from Metal Exiles.

It was clear that Owens wasn't in Iced Earth for the right reasons. I said it long before Barlow came back. I just figured Tim would leave after the next album; I had no idea Matt would come back, though.

Either way, Tim always blew off any talk of Iced Earth in interviews, he always said stuff like, "I don't know, that's Jon's thing." I mean, he'd say this about lyrics and the story line of Something Wicked. How, as the singer of those lyrics and that story, can you not have anything to say about them? Easy. He didn't care.

Tim will never top his 90s output.

Iced Earth aren't very good anyways. My opinion of course. Just never seen anything worthy of these guys.

The singing thing works both ways. Iced Earth needed a singer so they hired Tim. Thats all he was for is a hired gun. Just like every other member of that band. Yeah he did need to get paid, but also think about how many offers he had at the time. He could have went with anyone but he chose Iced Earth. So what, no big deal. Now he's singing with Yngwie and its the exact same situation. He's hired to sing. Same with when he was in Judas Priest.

He cared about the Beyond Fear stuff because that was/is his band. His interviews showed that. He probable had nothing to say when it came to Iced Earth. He probably didn't know much but he was chosen to do an interview. Things happen like that.

Lurideath wrote:

Iced Earth aren't very good anyways. My opinion of course. Just never seen anything worthy of these guys.

The singing thing works both ways. Iced Earth needed a singer so they hired Tim. Thats all he was for is a hired gun. Just like every other member of that band. Yeah he did need to get paid, but also think about how many offers he had at the time. He could have went with anyone but he chose Iced Earth. So what, no big deal. Now he's singing with Yngwie and its the exact same situation. He's hired to sing. Same with when he was in Judas Priest.

He cared about the Beyond Fear stuff because that was/is his band. His interviews showed that. He probable had nothing to say when it came to Iced Earth. He probably didn't know much but he was chosen to do an interview. Things happen like that.

Not that I agree with your opinion on Iced Earth, but I agree with your assessment on Ripper. When you get hired on as hired gun, that probably is the way one would views their time in the band, whether we're talking in the present or the past. Considering Iced Earth has been a revolving door of musicians, I would guess that it would be hard to be seen as anything less than that. Maybe we're surprised that Matt is back, but maybe Tim was really always looking over his shoulder? Who knows?

Lurideath wrote:

Iced Earth aren't very good anyways. My opinion of course. Just never seen anything worthy of these guys.

Have you heard "Night of the Stormrider"? Otherwise I pretty much agree.

If the interviewers keep asking questions about the past then these things are going to come up. Jon never says the right things ever. He puts down musician after musician in order to get himself up imo.

Ripper had a huge void to fill and he did a good job. I for one didn't care for Iced Earth's style change with Ripper as Jon strayed away from what made me love IE and that was the melody and simple song structure..

But can't the same thing be said about 90% of the musicians out there? How many join bands long after they've been established? Happens all the time. The thing with Tim is that there was no pride there. Despite Iced Earth being Jon's band, the guy isn't a tyrant. Tim could have had a bit more pride, a bit more passion. That says more about him than anything else, hired hand or not. He took no pride in what he was doing, and that showed clearly.

MetalRob331 wrote:

If the interviewers keep asking questions about the past then these things are going to come up. Jon never says the right things ever. He puts down musician after musician in order to get himself up imo.

See, I think he says the right things. He's a no BS kind of guy, and I respect that sort of way. Music fans want to believe in the fairy tale far too often. I'd rather have the truth.

This is just one of many interiews I have read since Tim left Iced Earth and Jon has said something different everytime.

The thing that really gets on my nerves with this whole situation is Jon has made it clear right from the start that Iced Earth is a vehicle for HIS songs. Then he turns round and says Tim had no passion for the band and saw it as just job. Er, hello! If I joined a band and was told from the start that the person who hired me was gonna write all the music, all the lyrics and that all the songs would be his vision how much passion would I be able to muster, naff all thats how much.

Jon's problem is that every time he talks to the press he seems to say one thing and then have a complete turnaround a few months later. I remember when Tim joined, according to Jon he was the greatest singer in the world and had been treated really badly by Priest. His voice was the one Jon heard when he wrote songs, blah, blah, blah. Jon just doesn't think before he speaks and come across as a total hypocrite and the revolving door of muscians over they years indicates he is an egomaniacal rock star which he claims he is not.

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

If the interviewers keep asking questions about the past then these things are going to come up. Jon never says the right things ever. He puts down musician after musician in order to get himself up imo.

See, I think he says the right things. He's a no BS kind of guy, and I respect that sort of way. Music fans want to believe in the fairy tale far too often. I'd rather have the truth.

I agree, but at some point are they all that bad? Why did you hire them, why were they with you so long? I love the ones that speak the truth, but say it in a way that it doesnt seem like bad mouthing somone.

Jon stays consistent.

And why does it matter that Iced Earth is a vehicle for his songs? I don't imagine any of you own your own company. And if you don't, do you take any sort of pride in your work? Why couldn't Tim do that? Moreover, it's arguable that Jon gave Tim more creative freedom than he's given most.

You people crack me up when you insist someone is egomaniacal. Not a single one of you would ever work so hard at something and not be the way Jon is. It's called passion, honesty.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

If the interviewers keep asking questions about the past then these things are going to come up. Jon never says the right things ever. He puts down musician after musician in order to get himself up imo.

See, I think he says the right things. He's a no BS kind of guy, and I respect that sort of way. Music fans want to believe in the fairy tale far too often. I'd rather have the truth.

I agree, but at some point are they all that bad? Why did you hire them, why were they with you so long? I love the ones that speak the truth, but say it in a way that it doesnt seem like bad mouthing somone.

People are too sensitive. In order for Jon to do what you ask, he'd have to sugarcoat things. Does anyone ever focus on the fact that Jon consistently refers to Tim's work with the band as outstanding, or that Tim is one of the greatest vocalists in the world? Nope. Not at all. They insist Jon's an ass because he said Tim's heart wasn't in the right place.

Shocking that he was right, huh? Guess Jon should have made concessions for Tim, huh? Give up creative control, let Tim do what he chooses, that sort of thing, huh? Tim knew what he signed on for. If Tim wasn't happy, let him move on. But don't blame someone else for Tim's displeasure. Tim will have the same exact issue with Yngwie. It's HIS fault, no one elses. If he wants a band, he should quit farting around and focus on Beyond Fear.

The idea of the "high-quality, totally democratic band" is a myth perpetuated by people who've never been in bands for very long IMHO.

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

If the interviewers keep asking questions about the past then these things are going to come up. Jon never says the right things ever. He puts down musician after musician in order to get himself up imo.

See, I think he says the right things. He's a no BS kind of guy, and I respect that sort of way. Music fans want to believe in the fairy tale far too often. I'd rather have the truth.

I agree, but at some point are they all that bad? Why did you hire them, why were they with you so long? I love the ones that speak the truth, but say it in a way that it doesnt seem like bad mouthing somone.

People are too sensitive. In order for Jon to do what you ask, he'd have to sugarcoat things. Does anyone ever focus on the fact that Jon consistently refers to Tim's work with the band as outstanding, or that Tim is one of the greatest vocalists in the world? Nope. Not at all. They insist Jon's an ass because he said Tim's heart wasn't in the right place.

Shocking that he was right, huh? Guess Jon should have made concessions for Tim, huh? Give up creative control, let Tim do what he chooses, that sort of thing, huh? Tim knew what he signed on for. If Tim wasn't happy, let him move on. But don't blame someone else for Tim's displeasure. Tim will have the same exact issue with Yngwie. It's HIS fault, no one elses. If he wants a band, he should quit farting around and focus on Beyond Fear.

Im referring to mostly all his interviews regarding, not just Tim but Matt as well. We all know Tim is a great vocalist but we also have to put into consideration these arent Tim's songs. Why does Iced Earth go through so many line-up changes because everything evolves around Jon and no one else matters. I like Jon but its a band not the Jon Schaffer Project..

Eyesore wrote:

Jon stays consistent.

And why does it matter that Iced Earth is a vehicle for his songs? I don't imagine any of you own your own company. And if you don't, do you take any sort of pride in your work? Why couldn't Tim do that? Moreover, it's arguable that Jon gave Tim more creative freedom than he's given most.

You people crack me up when you insist someone is egomaniacal. Not a single one of you would ever work so hard at something and not be the way Jon is. It's called passion, honesty.

I don't know enough regarding Jon and his supposed egomaniacal ways, but he's from Columbus, IN (and I lived there for a few years, so that's cool).

Regards to your analogy and owning one's own business. I didn't own my own business, but when I got my first store as a manager, I took my time in the hiring of people. The main reason for this was that I wanted responsible people working for me, and I wanted people in there that I thought would be dedicated to the store. I wanted clientele to get used to seeing familiar faces. I think that can only help in the success of the store. Well, when my store opened up, I didn't have everyone in place, much to the dismay of my boss and the owners. Though, when I did get those people in place, I was always told how good my crew was. I stayed at the store for a year, and NEVER had ONE of my employees ever call in sick, etc...They were dedicated, and their ages ranged anywhere from 17-20. I would like to see how many other managers across America could say the same thing? The key to my/store's success was the fact that I let them know from day one that they would have responsibilities, and that the success of the store was as much about them as it was me.

The question is, does Jon incorporate that same type of attitude in the band? I tend to believe that band's who have that revolving door mentality end up hurting themselves more than helping themselves in their overall success. Megadeth is a prime example. I think the band has been successful, but I think they could've been even more successful had they had a lineup that was more stable than what its been.

On Eddie Trunk's website if you look under Broadcasts and clink on audio archieves and search for Tim Owens you can hear him tell his side of the story, and this is from Jan 2008.


Here is the link to audio streams and you can make up your own minds:


http://www.eddietrunk.com/index.cfm?pid=402167

MetalRob331 wrote:

Im referring to mostly all his interviews regarding, not just Tim but Matt as well. We all know Tim is a great vocalist but we also have to put into consideration these arent Tim's songs. Why does Iced Earth go through so many line-up changes because everything evolves around Jon and no one else matters. I like Jon but its a band not the Jon Schaffer Project..

Because Jon is the boss, and sometimes people can't handle that. They want control; they want to call the shots. Go to work tomorrow and give that a try, see how your boss reacts. Also, some people just move on naturally, like people do every day with jobs.

As for what Jon says about Matt and Tim. I don't see what the big deal is. He said Matt's heart wasn't in it anymore, his performance while recording the Glorious Burden was lackluster. Given the fact that Matt disappeared from the scene for years and actually became a police office, I'd say Jon was probably telling the truth. As for his comments about Tim's voice being what he hears when he writes Iced Earth's music, maybe that's true. He's never denied that. Maybe Matt isn't the vocalist he envisions when he writes, but maybe Jon knows that Matt is the best vocalist for what he writes. Or maybe Jon was simply stoked that he got Tim as a vocalist and gushed about him. We've all prematurely gushed about things in our lives, only to later realize maybe we blew our load a bit too soon. It happens.

metalinmyveins wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Jon stays consistent.

And why does it matter that Iced Earth is a vehicle for his songs? I don't imagine any of you own your own company. And if you don't, do you take any sort of pride in your work? Why couldn't Tim do that? Moreover, it's arguable that Jon gave Tim more creative freedom than he's given most.

You people crack me up when you insist someone is egomaniacal. Not a single one of you would ever work so hard at something and not be the way Jon is. It's called passion, honesty.

I don't know enough regarding Jon and his supposed egomaniacal ways, but he's from Columbus, IN (and I lived there for a few years, so that's cool).

Regards to your analogy and owning one's own business. I didn't own my own business, but when I got my first store as a manager, I took my time in the hiring of people. The main reason for this was that I wanted responsible people working for me, and I wanted people in there that I thought would be dedicated to the store. I wanted clientele to get used to seeing familiar faces. I think that can only help in the success of the store. Well, when my store opened up, I didn't have everyone in place, much to the dismay of my boss and the owners. Though, when I did get those people in place, I was always told how good my crew was. I stayed at the store for a year, and NEVER had ONE of my employees ever call in sick, etc...They were dedicated, and their ages ranged anywhere from 17-20. I would like to see how many other managers across America could say the same thing? The key to my/store's success was the fact that I let them know from day one that they would have responsibilities, and that the success of the store was as much about them as it was me.

The question is, does Jon incorporate that same type of attitude in the band? I tend to believe that band's who have that revolving door mentality end up hurting themselves more than helping themselves in their overall success. Megadeth is a prime example. I think the band has been successful, but I think they could've been even more successful had they had a lineup that was more stable than what its been.

There's a fundamental difference here, though. Musicians are creative, thus they like control. Sure, some musicians are content to be that unimportant person in the background, but those musicians are generally in bands that make enough money that they can be content. No doubt every person Jon ever hired for Iced Earth knew the situation, were all gung-ho, then got comfortable and got greedy. Whether that was monetary greed, creative greed, or whatever.

As for a stable line-up, I don't think it's needed. You need a strong foundation. Jon is that. Dave Mustaine is that. Zakk Wylde is that. Rich Ward is that. Having a solid line-up might be great for the band leader, but it's not necessary at all. The only hinderance that can come about is when a musician such as this begins to tread water. Some say Jon is doing that now, but I disagree. I think he's consciously trying new things, and they're not entirely appealing to fans of old.

Megadeth, on the other hand, is being held back by Mustaine, I think, because he's trying too hard to be the musician everyone wants him to be. This new "return to roots" is cool, but I think it lacks the personality that albums like Youthanasia and Cryptic Writings had. People dislike those albums, sure, but I think that's when he was last being an honest writer.

The same can be said about Metallica. Despite this new album being really good, I think Load and Reload were the last albums this band did with integrity.

Line-ups mean nothing. Honesty and hard work trumps everything else. If you're the boss and someone isn't stepping up, or is stepping up and then over the line, can their asses.

Eyesore wrote:

metalinmyveins wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Jon stays consistent.

And why does it matter that Iced Earth is a vehicle for his songs? I don't imagine any of you own your own company. And if you don't, do you take any sort of pride in your work? Why couldn't Tim do that? Moreover, it's arguable that Jon gave Tim more creative freedom than he's given most.

You people crack me up when you insist someone is egomaniacal. Not a single one of you would ever work so hard at something and not be the way Jon is. It's called passion, honesty.

I don't know enough regarding Jon and his supposed egomaniacal ways, but he's from Columbus, IN (and I lived there for a few years, so that's cool).

Regards to your analogy and owning one's own business. I didn't own my own business, but when I got my first store as a manager, I took my time in the hiring of people. The main reason for this was that I wanted responsible people working for me, and I wanted people in there that I thought would be dedicated to the store. I wanted clientele to get used to seeing familiar faces. I think that can only help in the success of the store. Well, when my store opened up, I didn't have everyone in place, much to the dismay of my boss and the owners. Though, when I did get those people in place, I was always told how good my crew was. I stayed at the store for a year, and NEVER had ONE of my employees ever call in sick, etc...They were dedicated, and their ages ranged anywhere from 17-20. I would like to see how many other managers across America could say the same thing? The key to my/store's success was the fact that I let them know from day one that they would have responsibilities, and that the success of the store was as much about them as it was me.

The question is, does Jon incorporate that same type of attitude in the band? I tend to believe that band's who have that revolving door mentality end up hurting themselves more than helping themselves in their overall success. Megadeth is a prime example. I think the band has been successful, but I think they could've been even more successful had they had a lineup that was more stable than what its been.

There's a fundamental difference here, though. Musicians are creative, thus they like control. Sure, some musicians are content to be that unimportant person in the background, but those musicians are generally in bands that make enough money that they can be content. No doubt every person Jon ever hired for Iced Earth knew the situation, were all gung-ho, then got comfortable and got greedy. Whether that was monetary greed, creative greed, or whatever.

As for a stable line-up, I don't think it's needed. You need a strong foundation. Jon is that. Dave Mustaine is that. Zakk Wylde is that. Rich Ward is that. Having a solid line-up might be great for the band leader, but it's not necessary at all. The only hinderance that can come about is when a musician such as this begins to tread water. Some say Jon is doing that now, but I disagree. I think he's consciously trying new things, and they're not entirely appealing to fans of old.

Megadeth, on the other hand, is being held back by Mustaine, I think, because he's trying too hard to be the musician everyone wants him to be. This new "return to roots" is cool, but I think it lacks the personality that albums like Youthanasia and Cryptic Writings had. People dislike those albums, sure, but I think that's when he was last being an honest writer.

The same can be said about Metallica. Despite this new album being really good, I think Load and Reload were the last albums this band did with integrity.

Line-ups mean nothing. Honesty and hard work trumps everything else. If you're the boss and someone isn't stepping up, or is stepping up and then over the line, can their asses.

Like I stated before, I don't pretend to know the inner workings of Jon or Iced Earth. I haven't gotten on board with that band until somewhat recently. Did everyone joining Iced Earth know what they were getting into? You probably no better than me, but others on here have said that Jon says this, and Jon says that....So do we know that to be true?

You named 4 individuals that have what you consider to be a strong foundation for the bands they're in. I would agree with 2, I'm not sure about 1, but with Mustaine, I disagree. For the sole reason that this guy was an addict for the better part of his career/life. I think he's made many a poor decisions throughout his career due to the fact that he has had substance abuse issues. I agree with you that one can still be a success in the industry even if the band has a revolving door of musicians, but my contention is that harmony within a band normally tends to produce dividends in the long run. We've heard of instances where bands fought and still put out a great album, but for long term success I think consistent membership within the band is pretty important.

I actually put a little more credence on line up stability than you do, and whatever. I think various line up changes can affect credibility or what you refer to as honesty. I guess for myself, I wonder if there is tremendous amounts of dysfunctionality within a group, I immediately start to wonder if what is on an album is up to par. Jeff Young for Megadeth seemed to always step it up on/off stage (where as both Dave's couldn't of said that during that time period). How did Dave handle that whole situation? He concocted a story saying that Jeff Young had slept with his then fiance, which was BS. Dave probably canned a lot of asses that way, or drove people out of the band because of his personality.

I think line ups are important and certain group of musicians for whatever reason, they have a certain chemistry that cannot be recaptured once someone leaves or dies.

Like Metal I only recently got into Iced Earth, while it maybe true it is John Schaffer's band, he still has a need for a vocalist that make his songs connect to his audience and make the songs come alive. Maybe Tim Owens was not the right person for the job,but I don't feel he was disposable. Let us face the fact that there are not a lot of vocalist who can sing with the range and power that Tim Owens can.

I think certain bands such as Iced Earth, Rainbow, the later versions of Black Sabbath, all hindered their success or at least limited the amount of success they may have obtained due to revolving door policy they have had with various line ups.

I just feel Jon needs to step up to the plate and say "hey look i'm not the easiest to work with. but i know what i want". Line-up stability is huge for a band. Changing members is not good and causes you to interact with more personalities.

Jon tells it like he see's it, i just think he could say look Tim is no longer in the band next question please...

Yeah Temple, I heard Night of the Stormrider and disliked it.

Revolving doors are not good for any band. When members leave, so does chemistry within the band. Concerning the people you mentioned Eyesore, they are all guitarists and usually guitarists do know what they want and are the main writers of the band. But the chemistry those people have with other musicians have hindered them from moving forward more than they are.

There's definitely a time for line-up changes. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be talking about ICED EARTH because they would still be on their original vocalist Gene Adams and wouldn't be even half as popular.

DEATH benefited greatly from its many lineup changes.

Scott Travis gave JUDAS PRIEST a much-needed boost as well.

I don't see why people assume a new lineup can't have a great chemistry as well.

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's definitely a time for line-up changes. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be talking about ICED EARTH because they would still be on their original vocalist Gene Adams and wouldn't be even half as popular.

DEATH benefited greatly from its many lineup changes.

Scott Travis gave JUDAS PRIEST a much-needed boost as well.

I don't see why people assume a new lineup can't have a great chemistry as well.

A new line-up every tour and every cd is rough. It's like you go in Iced Earth wondering when you will be replaced, and how long you will be there.