11/11/11 - Black Sabbath

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Too much money is already riding on this. They've already got festivals and an album lined up,

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that the tour/album and merchandise will generate over $100 million... way too much money riding on it to not have [all original members] involved.....

You're probably right. I mean, look, it worked with Michael Anthony and Van Halen, right?



Oh, wait. Nevermind.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Quote :

Too much money is already riding on this. They've already got festivals and an album lined up,

Quote :

that the tour/album and merchandise will generate over $100 million... way too much money riding on it to not have [all original members] involved.....

You're probably right. I mean, look, it worked with Michael Anthony and Van Halen, right?



Oh, wait. Nevermind.

Black Sabbath is much more important than Van Halen and Anthony isn't on Ward's level in terms of being a rock/metal legend, IMO. It sucks that Michael isn't in VH but are we really going to keep griping about backing vocals?

They could certainly play without Ward (and it could be argued they would play better) but I think the foreign markets would be less forgiving than the U.S. when it comes to "reunions" that aren't really reunions.

For what will no doubt be the LAST Black Sabbath activity ever, it would be absolutely stupid to not make it happen and continue to play the power game.

Bill Ward is one hell of a drummer, Geezer and Ward are incredible, and while I like Vinnie Appice and Eric Singer, Ward was a true original.

Eh, I don't know about that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on Bill's side here too. He should get his fair share. But if things don't work out and he doesn't participate, another drummer will be brought in without hesitation and the album and tour will go on. They've already got commitments to fullfil. Folks buying tickets are going to see Ozzy & Tony together, playing claasic Black Sabbath songs.

The only way I could see this whole thing being derailed is if Tony's health takes a turn for the worse or if Sharon decided Ozzy's not doing it. I'm all for the original members recording and touring, but if Bill bows out, they'll carry on. It's a minor inconvenience looking at the big picture.

You are probably right MG, but Sharon and her goons need to stop treating Bill Ward as some session guy, that is Iommi's job to treat him that way!!

Abs-so-f**kin-loot-ly!! I'm just afraid that Sharon will take advantage of Tony's current heath situation and wrestle control over this whole project.

It's horrible to think that someone would use someone else's cancer scare as leverage, but I wouldn't put that or anything else past her.

At this point, he may let her or even ask her to do it. Wouldn't blame him for it though I don't it would bode well overall.

Last time Iommi caved and let Ozzy (meaning Sharon) any say in terms of creativity we had those two sub standard songs (by Sabbath standards) that were tacked on at Reunion disc.

In a world filled with robotic double-bass drum technicians, I think it may be hard for people to appreciate the artistry that Bill Ward brings to the drum chair. Ward is a master, plain and simple.

The Sabbath rhythm section of Geezer & Ward operate as a single symbiotic entity, it would be a shame to not capture that again.

S.D. wrote:

In a world filled with robotic double-bass drum technicians, I think it may be hard for people to appreciate the artistry that Bill Ward brings to the drum chair. Ward is a master, plain and simple.

The Sabbath rhythm section of Geezer & Ward operate as a single symbiotic entity, it would be a shame to not capture that again.

yeppers

I remember practing along to some Sabbath as a teen w/ headphones on and one of my older sisters popped in the shop and told me she was surprised to hear me playing stuff with a jazz flavor. I was too stupid to actually get it back then.

James B. wrote:

S.D. wrote:

In a world filled with robotic double-bass drum technicians, I think it may be hard for people to appreciate the artistry that Bill Ward brings to the drum chair. Ward is a master, plain and simple.

The Sabbath rhythm section of Geezer & Ward operate as a single symbiotic entity, it would be a shame to not capture that again.

yeppers

I remember practing along to some Sabbath as a teen w/ headphones on and one of my older sisters popped in the shop and told me she was surprised to hear me playing stuff with a jazz flavor. I was too stupid to actually get it back then.

I remember playing Volume 4 on a friend's turn table when I was a young lad, and his dad who hated metal, heard a few tunes on the album, he hated the singing, but loved the drumming, and mentioned jazz in his description of the drumming style, I was to young to understand, and thought maybe he had dipped into my pot stash.

Bill grew up listening to jazz drummers like Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Art Blakey, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones and others, you can definitely hear that influence in his playing.

I have many friends that are jazz fans, most of them don't listen to hard rock/metal...but quite a few have mentioned Black Sabbath as an exception. Bill Ward being one of the primary reasons.

S.D. wrote:

Bill grew up listening to jazz drummers like Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Art Blakey, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones and others, you can definitely hear that influence in his playing.

I have many friends that are jazz fans, most of them don't listen to hard rock/metal...but quite a few have mentioned Black Sabbath as an exception. Bill Ward being one of the primary reasons.

As a kid I had no idea what jazz drumming was, let alone who Gene Krupa was etc, it was not til I got older that I could hear the difference between his style and drummers that followed him in Black Sabbath. But even then I had no idea why he was different. When I watched Metal Evolution I had no idea how important jazz was to Butler, Ward and Iommi.

You know, after reflecting on this a little more, I do understand Bill's point...completely...BUT:

This is most likely the LAST Black Sabbath activity ever. He's obviously going to be paid something, they're not asking him to do it for free. It also does not appear that Bill Ward needs the money. So, the way I see it, were I a 63-year old drummer who was part of the band that literally birthed an entire genre of music, I'd just f@kkin' go...do the tour, soak in the love from the fans, and be done.

"They're not being fair..." Show business has never had the reputation of being a fair game. Who cares if Ozzy's or Tony's % is greater at this point. That may have mattered in 1970...it doesn't really matter at this point.

S.D. wrote:

Bill grew up listening to jazz drummers like Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Art Blakey, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones and others, you can definitely hear that influence in his playing.

I have many friends that are jazz fans, most of them don't listen to hard rock/metal...but quite a few have mentioned Black Sabbath as an exception. Bill Ward being one of the primary reasons.

There was a thread about the most important instrument in metal a few years ago and I voted for the drums with Bill in mind. I bet that most of us here who own Sabbath albums have jammed along with Bill with imaginary drumsticks in hand one time or another.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

You know, after reflecting on this a little more, I do understand Bill's point...completely...BUT:

This is most likely the LAST Black Sabbath activity ever. He's obviously going to be paid something, they're not asking him to do it for free. It also does not appear that Bill Ward needs the money. So, the way I see it, were I a 63-year old drummer who was part of the band that literally birthed an entire genre of music, I'd just f@kkin' go...do the tour, soak in the love from the fans, and be done.

"They're not being fair..." Show business has never had the reputation of being a fair game. Who cares if Ozzy's or Tony's % is greater at this point. That may have mattered in 1970...it doesn't really matter at this point.

I see it as more of a respect thing. Sure, it's always gonna come down to money, but I think Bill's point is, "I'm not just some hired gun, session musician. I'm a quarter of Black Sabbath and should be paid accordingly."

Does he need the money? Probaly not. But it'd be hard to sit by and watch others get a significantly larger slice of the pie that he helped bake.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I see it as more of a respect thing. Sure, it's always gonna come down to money, but I think Bill's point is, "I'm not just some hired gun, session musician. I'm a quarter of Black Sabbath and should be paid accordingly."

Does he need the money? Probaly not. But it'd be hard to sit by and watch others get a significantly larger slice of the pie that he helped bake.

This.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

You know, after reflecting on this a little more, I do understand Bill's point...completely...BUT:

This is most likely the LAST Black Sabbath activity ever. He's obviously going to be paid something, they're not asking him to do it for free. It also does not appear that Bill Ward needs the money. So, the way I see it, were I a 63-year old drummer who was part of the band that literally birthed an entire genre of music, I'd just f@kkin' go...do the tour, soak in the love from the fans, and be done.

"They're not being fair..." Show business has never had the reputation of being a fair game. Who cares if Ozzy's or Tony's % is greater at this point. That may have mattered in 1970...it doesn't really matter at this point.

I see it as more of a respect thing. Sure, it's always gonna come down to money, but I think Bill's point is, "I'm not just some hired gun, session musician. I'm a quarter of Black Sabbath and should be paid accordingly."

Does he need the money? Probaly not. But it'd be hard to sit by and watch others get a significantly larger slice of the pie that he helped bake.

I understand that 100%.

I look at it like Mike Anthony...he did the 2004 tour for himself, the fans and because he thought that was going to be it. He knew EVH did not respect him...it's more for himself and the fans than making it about EVH or contracts or respect.

I hope things do get settled and they can all move on. But now that Bill's gone public with his issues, it will be interesting to see if either Tony or Sharon fire back in the press. This could turn into a huge pissing battle.

They are continuing without Bill.

We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer

I hate this.

S.D. wrote:

They are continuing without Bill.

We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer

I hate this.

At this point, I can't help but feel like Bill's ego screwed the Black Sabbath fans...it's more about them than him.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

S.D. wrote:

They are continuing without Bill.

We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer

I hate this.

At this point, I can't help but feel like Bill's ego screwed the Black Sabbath fans...it's more about them than him.

Pass me some of whatever you're smoking today, I could use it.

Bill wants to be treated fairly and so it's HIS fault that this is derailing? F*ck that. They should either make it FAIR or they should pack it in. I blame Ozzy, Geezer & Tony for being willing to continue without him.

Wow. That was quick and to the point. I guess there will be no pissing battle.

Now let's have fun specualting and over-anaylizing who will take Mr. Ward's place. Vegas bookies are giving Vinny 4 to 1 odds. James B. is at 150 to 1 and everyone's 3rd favorite mail carrier Phoenix Wayne is getting 450 to 1 odds.

Let the games begin!!

S.D. wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

S.D. wrote:

They are continuing without Bill.

We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer

I hate this.

At this point, I can't help but feel like Bill's ego screwed the Black Sabbath fans...it's more about them than him.

Pass me some of whatever you're smoking today, I could use it.

Bill wants to be treated fairly and so it's HIS fault that this is derailing? F*ck that. They should either make it FAIR or they should pack it in. I blame Ozzy, Geezer & Tony for being willing to continue without him.

People keep saying that like I don't get it.

I KNOW that! I understand his position 100%. He wants a fair, equal share of the money. I got no beef with him wanting that.

BUT, there are times (and IMO this is one of them) when putting ones own self aside for the benefit of the greater good (the fans who made you) is the right thing to do. The band (Ozzy, Sharon, Tony, whoever) doesn't give you the respect you deserve, so don't expect it from them. Instead, trade it in for the love and adulation of the millions of fans around the world with the band YOU KNOW you belong in, regardless of what anyone else thinks. Take less money, keep to yourself, give the fans what they want, and go home happy.

Pay THE FANS back for all THEY have given you...forget contracts.

I understand his position...I just don't agree with how he's handling it.