1988 THRASH METAL! Mosh it Up!

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

Quote :

UGH! Ok, I obviously didn't make myself very clear. I was merely trying to say they probably would have been much more well known had they not been screwed by their record company. I was not trying to compare them directly to Testament.

Ok, I agree that they could've been somewhat more known if marketed better.

That debatable.

Back in the day, the Christian tag could've worked against them. Speaking from personal experience, if someone came up to my friends and I back in the day with a tape of "Christian thrash", we wouldn't have given it the time of day. "Christian and thrash together? 2 words combined that can't make sense. Does not compute". An ignorant statement, sure, but we laughed at a group like Stryper and made jokes about the bible throwing, stupid stuff like that without really listening to the music. The stripped outfits didn't help either.

Point is, there are plenty of folks out there that would dismiss a band just because they carried a Christian tag, no matter what. Even if the product is top shelf, it can limit their marketability.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that my musical tastes have matured (even if I haven't) over the years and I'll gladly listen to Christian bands. Reading Ult's & Kmorgs site and being a member of this board has opening up my ears to tons of new bands, Christian and secular alike. As long as they're good though. I still don't listen to Vengeance Rising, but their belief system has nothing to do with it.

'

Very true, but as much as you mocked Stryper, you knew who they were as did most metal fans.

Like I said, I bought the tape in '88, brought it back to college and my metalhead friends from college loved them. None of them were Christians, but many of them actually ventured into Christian stores to pick it up.

It's all debatable and opinion, but considering how popular they were and the fact that they were stuck in a crappy record contract.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

Quote :

UGH! Ok, I obviously didn't make myself very clear. I was merely trying to say they probably would have been much more well known had they not been screwed by their record company. I was not trying to compare them directly to Testament.

Ok, I agree that they could've been somewhat more known if marketed better.

That debatable.

Back in the day, the Christian tag could've worked against them. Speaking from personal experience, if someone came up to my friends and I back in the day with a tape of "Christian thrash", we wouldn't have given it the time of day. "Christian and thrash together? 2 words combined that can't make sense. Does not compute". An ignorant statement, sure, but we laughed at a group like Stryper and made jokes about the bible throwing, stupid stuff like that without really listening to the music. The stripped outfits didn't help either.

Point is, there are plenty of folks out there that would dismiss a band just because they carried a Christian tag, no matter what. Even if the product is top shelf, it can limit their marketability.

And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that my musical tastes have matured (even if I haven't) over the years and I'll gladly listen to Christian bands. Reading Ult's & Kmorgs site and being a member of this board has opening up my ears to tons of new bands, Christian and secular alike. As long as they're good though. I still don't listen to Vengeance Rising, but their belief system has nothing to do with it.

That's what i was trying to tell ult... Most metalhead's don't like preachy lyrics and Roger was almost militant about it! I thought the music was great but Roger's voice really did hold them back imo.

Nahhhh, Roger's voice was unique for the time. His voice was part of their charm and what attracted many people to them. Who else was doing vocals that gnarly and nasty? Death ('87), Napalm Death ('88), maybe Possessed or Venom...not many others. This was pre-death metal stuff.

Quote :

Very true, but as much as you mocked Stryper, you knew who they were as did most metal fans.

True, but their style of melodic rock and their look was much easier for the MTV masses to digest at the time too. They could get primetime rotation and radio play much easier than a thrash band, Christian or otherwise.

Found one I missed:
Faith or Fear - Punishment Area (1988)

ultmetal wrote:

Death ('87), Napalm Death ('88), maybe Possessed or Venom...not many others.

And none of those bands sold as many units as TESTAMENT either.

But I agree that VR were bigger than VIKING.

The Christian tag was definitely a hindrance (and still is) like Metalguy said.

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Death ('87), Napalm Death ('88), maybe Possessed or Venom...not many others.

And none of those bands sold as many units as TESTAMENT either.

But I agree that VR were bigger than VIKING.

The Christian tag was definitely a hindrance (and still is) like Metalguy said.

Were they as big as Sacred Reich?

Troublezone wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Death ('87), Napalm Death ('88), maybe Possessed or Venom...not many others.

And none of those bands sold as many units as TESTAMENT either.

But I agree that VR were bigger than VIKING.

The Christian tag was definitely a hindrance (and still is) like Metalguy said.

Were they as big as Sacred Reich?

No way. I remember Scared Reich toured and it Tampa many time, I never heard of VR ever playing in my area and at that time we were huge metal market and future death metal capitol of the world. The only time I ever heard of VR was when they had a small blurb in Guitar World, where the paragraph spoke about them being Christians.

Even if I was a fan or interested in checking them out, not once did I ever see their albums stocked on the shelves, and the stores around here carried tons of metal albums on indie labels, I am not sure if their albums were stocked in Christian book stores but if that was the only place they were being sold at, no wonder they did not get far in the mainstream media and press.

The only time I saw V.R. discussed outside of the usual "Christian" rock media outlets (i.e. Heaven's Metal mag, etc.) was an album review or two buried in some underground zines and a segment on a Hard N Heavy video magazine. For the most part, mainstream metal mags like Metal Maniacs ignored the entire Christian thrash scene (save for Believer) and wouldn't touch'em with a ten foot dildo.

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Death ('87), Napalm Death ('88), maybe Possessed or Venom...not many others.

And none of those bands sold as many units as TESTAMENT either.

But I agree that VR were bigger than VIKING.

The Christian tag was definitely a hindrance (and still is) like Metalguy said.

Yea, Testament was probably a bad example to make my point.

manny wrote:

Even if I was a fan or interested in checking them out, not once did I ever see their albums stocked on the shelves, and the stores around here carried tons of metal albums on indie labels, I am not sure if their albums were stocked in Christian book stores but if that was the only place they were being sold at, no wonder they did not get far in the mainstream media and press.

My point exactly!

They got screwed by a record company that went from being distributed by Enimga/Medussa to being in the Christian bookstores only. Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

ultmetal wrote:

manny wrote:

Even if I was a fan or interested in checking them out, not once did I ever see their albums stocked on the shelves, and the stores around here carried tons of metal albums on indie labels, I am not sure if their albums were stocked in Christian book stores but if that was the only place they were being sold at, no wonder they did not get far in the mainstream media and press.

My point exactly!

They got screwed by a record company that went from being distributed by Enimga/Medussa to being in the Christian bookstores only. Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

If the Christian Bookstore stocked it at all. The timeframe surrounding VR release was bookstores were independent for the most part and a lot of them had issues with Christian rock - not to mention the music VR was playing.

exact33 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

manny wrote:

Even if I was a fan or interested in checking them out, not once did I ever see their albums stocked on the shelves, and the stores around here carried tons of metal albums on indie labels, I am not sure if their albums were stocked in Christian book stores but if that was the only place they were being sold at, no wonder they did not get far in the mainstream media and press.

My point exactly!

They got screwed by a record company that went from being distributed by Enimga/Medussa to being in the Christian bookstores only. Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

If the Christian Bookstore stocked it at all. The timeframe surrounding VR release was bookstores were independent for the most part and a lot of them had issues with Christian rock - not to mention the music VR was playing.

True.

I found my copy at a little hole-in-the-wall bookstore in NJ. I was driving a truck for an interior design company and stopped for lunch someplace. There was this little store next to it, so I popped my head in to check out the music. Figured they'd have the usual Petra and Amy Grant, but found this gnarly VR album in the demos. Popped it in, put on the headphone and smiled from ear to ear. Wow! That's heavy! Sold.

ultmetal wrote:

Found one I missed:
Faith or Fear - Punishment Area (1988)

Does anyone know for sure the release year for this? Found conflicting release years. Is it '88 or '89?

Troublezone wrote:

Were they as big as Sacred Reich?

Not at all.

ultmetal wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Found one I missed:
Faith or Fear - Punishment Area (1988)

Does anyone know for sure the release year for this? Found conflicting release years. Is it '88 or '89?

I`m pretty sure that it is '89.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

Were they as big as Sacred Reich?

Not at all.

Yeah, Sacred Reich even appeared in a movie:

Quote :

They got screwed by a record company that went from being distributed by Enimga/Medussa to being in the Christian bookstores only. Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

You're placing allot of the the blame on the record label.

Could it at all be possible (and I really have no idea how any of this stuff works, I'm just throwing this out there) that the mainstream distribution companies and record stores rejected them? Using the logic I mentioned before, could it be possible for someone like Sam Goody's to be approached by a record company and they say "Christian metal? No thanks. It doesn't sell".

Maybe they tried to distribute this stuff and noone was interested except the Christian market?

Every band back then that wasn't commercially successful blames their record company. This is a common theme in band interviews.

Quote :

Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

...which was the problem with the Christian metal "industry" as a whole. Their entire business model was totally bass-ackwards. Aside from Stryper and Barren Cross, who were on "outside" corporate labels that got distribution beyond the Christian bookstore circuit, it was rare to find, say, VR or Deliverance anywhere else. I can remember occasionally coming across, say, HUMAN SACRIFICE in a Tower Records or a Bloodgood tape in a Sam Goody but those were unusual occurrences.

This always struck me kind of funny cuz I'd read interviews with these bands and they'd say their purpose was to "reach kids who didn't know Christ through our music" or whatever, yet those kids they wanted to reach obviously wouldn't be caught dead going into a Christian book store to check out music.

I can honeslty say without question that from 1987 when I discovered GnR's Appetite for Destruction and all things heavy till probably sometime in the early 2000's when I started reading Ult's site, aside from Stryper, I was completely oblivious to the genre of Christian metal.

I live in a big city. All my friends were metalheads. I read all the popular music rags of the day, watched Headbanger's Ball every Saturday night. I went to plenty of concerts & shows in big & small venues. I went to music expos and collector shows and hit music shops big & small all the time. If there was anyone anywhere marketing Christian metal to the mainstream masses, they severly dropped the ball because I saw nothing of it.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I can honeslty say without question that from 1987 when I discovered GnR's Appetite for Destruction and all things heavy till probably sometime in the early 2000's when I started reading Ult's site, aside from Stryper, I was completely oblivious to the genre of Christian metal.

I live in a big city. All my friends were metalheads. I read all the popular music rags of the day, watched Headbanger's Ball every Saturday night. I went to plenty of concerts & shows in big & small venues. I went to music expos and collector shows and hit music shops big & small all the time. If there was anyone anywhere marketing Christian metal to the mainstream masses, they severly dropped the ball because I saw nothing of it.

I think most Christian metal bands had a severe uphill climb - many in the Christian market didnt want them and most in the mainstream market laughed at the idea. From my experience, exposure to this or that Christian metal band was through word of mouth and then trying to find a place to buy the cd. The age of the internet changed all that but back in the day it rare to find tapes/cds of Christian bands until 1991-ish...

The only Christian artist I was aware of growing up where the already mentioned Amy Grant, Petra and Sandi Patti, and the only reason I had heard of any of them was because I had a Christian friend who was a youth minister.


When Stryper came along that being a Christian metal band was still considered a novelity, and the press coverage was enough for me to check them and bought 'Soliders Under Command' but as far as Bride,VR, and host of others, at that time never heard of them.


Amy Grant at some point in time managed to break into the mainstream but if any other Christian artist metal or not broke out into the mainstream, it never hit my radar.

Also I remember at my friend's church their was an anti Christian rock movement, where books and youth groups formed around this topic

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Quote :

They got screwed by a record company that went from being distributed by Enimga/Medussa to being in the Christian bookstores only. Most metal fans were not frequenting Christian bookstores to buy music.

You're placing allot of the the blame on the record label.

Could it at all be possible (and I really have no idea how any of this stuff works, I'm just throwing this out there) that the mainstream distribution companies and record stores rejected them? Using the logic I mentioned before, could it be possible for someone like Sam Goody's to be approached by a record company and they say "Christian metal? No thanks. It doesn't sell".

Maybe they tried to distribute this stuff and noone was interested except the Christian market?

No, it's a fact. Intense Records was an independent record company distributed by Medussa/Enigma. Then Intense Records was sold to Frontline with distribution through the Diamante Music Group. With "Human Sacrifice" the band saw excellent sales from the regular record stores until suddenly after the first pressing of the record, the album was now only available at Christian bookstores. Frontline only advertised the band in Christian publications. It's exactly what the band DIDN'T want.

They (VR) weren't rejected by anyone. They were trapped in a record contract that initially promised them national distribution and national advertising, only to be stuck with a record contract forcing them into Christian stores that didn't even want them there. Also, it wasn't just them. It was also and Sacred Warrior, who were also signed to Intense Records.

You guys may not have heard of them back in '88, but a lot of metal fans did. I was not into any Christian scene at that time either. I just happened upon them by chance.

When I saw them in 1990, it definitely wasn't a Christian only audience, and it wasn't a church they were playing at. They were playing to a packed house at the Sunshine Theater. I've seen many, many shows there, W.A.S.P., Dio, King Diamond, Lizzy Borden, Motorhead, Ted Nugent, among others. I've seen Overkill, Kreator, Napalm Death, Iced Earth, Nevermore, Fireball Ministry, etc. at a smaller club just down the road from the Sunshine called The Launchpad. (Both the Sunshine Theater and The Launchpad are owned and run by the same people). Obviously VR were big enough to warrant the bigger theater, rather than the small club, at least at that time.

I actually helped run the band's merch table at the '90 show and everyone wanted "Human Sacrifice" shirts, but all they had was "Once Dead" merch. "Human Sacrifice" was the album that they all knew and had.

When I saw VR again a few years later, (around '93) they were playing at a church (Calvary Chapel) to a mostly Christian audience. A big turn of events, most of it the blame of a record company that were only marketing them to a Christian market.

It's all a guessing game just how big they could have gotten. I tend to think they could have been much more well know, simply because they were different than most bands and they were fairly extreme for their time.

manny wrote:

The only Christian artist I was aware of growing up where the already mentioned Amy Grant, Petra and Sandi Patti, and the only reason I had heard of any of them was because I had a Christian friend who was a youth minister.


When Stryper came along that being a Christian metal band was still considered a novelity, and the press coverage was enough for me to check them and bought 'Soliders Under Command' but as far as Bride,VR, and host of others, at that time never heard of them.


Amy Grant at some point in time managed to break into the mainstream but if any other Christian artist metal or not broke out into the mainstream, it never hit my radar.

Also I remember at my friend's church their was an anti Christian rock movement, where books and youth groups formed around this topic

I never really cared if music was Christian or not, even before I was a Christian myself. I got into Barren Cross early on, as well as Stryper, Bride, Vengeance, Whitecross, Guardian, Bloodgood, etc. I remember hearing Barren Cross of Z-Rock back in the day. They were on Enigma records, as well as Guardian, so they both had decent distribution and received some radio airplay. Barren Cross even had a video on Headbangers Ball. (Deliverance's Weapons video did well on MTV as well.) I remember reading an article on Bloodgood in RIP Magazine and was quite surprised to see them in there. I also read a review of Vengeance Rising's first demo in Metal Forces. They had good things to say about them.

I've got that issue too. Awesome mag.