France is rated the top place to live in the world

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Oh, so praying with muslims makes you a muslim?

I never once said that, if youre gonna put words in my mouth then we can just stop right there. Thats the problem with these topics people like to attack people with differing opinions. I haven't attacked you and in one post you put words in my mouth and call me arrogant...but do You honestly believe that a muslim name like Barak Hussein Obama is not a muslim? Hes been denying it, Frankly I dont believe him nor do I trust him as far as I can throw him

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Oh yeah, a theocracy... we had that here in Europe back in the Dark Ages

I was not referring to the Dark Ages I should have been more clear on that, maybe I was not clear but what I was referring to has never happened on this earth and never will. Im talking about a place where everybody is a believer of Jesus Christ that there are no other religions. The best way to describe what i was trying to say is "Heaven on Earth" but if you want this rotting decaying place you can have it.

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you suggest everyone should be Christian? That is pretty arrogant if you ask me

In a perfect world yes, In the real world It aint gonna happen, but when I say Christian I mean Followers of Jesus Christ, not the stereotypical Christian. But Ill bow my "arrogant" ass out

DallasBlack wrote:

I think we found something to agree on. Our choices have been pretty crappy lately. I think someone said it best, "Let's kick out the people we have now and start over." Won't happen but how many people keep getting re-elected over and over again and things don't improve (on both sides).

We can definitely agree here Dallas!!!

Addy wrote:

Quote :

Oh, so praying with muslims makes you a muslim?

I never once said that, if youre gonna put words in my mouth then we can just stop right there. Thats the problem with these topics people like to attack people with differing opinions. I haven't attacked you and in one post you put words in my mouth and call me arrogant...but do You honestly believe that a muslim name like Barak Hussein Obama is not a muslim? Hes been denying it, Frankly I dont believe him nor do I trust him as far as I can throw him

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention of attacking you. It's hard to get your message across on the Internet. But you said (and I quote) "but our nation's leader from my standpoint should not be a sun bowing muslim." I am not putting words in your mouth at all. If you meant something different, then I apologize for misinterpreting your post. I simply called your opinion an arrogant one, and that opinion is one of the most common reasons why non-Christians find a lot of "Followers of Jesus Christ" to be arrogant and annoying (note: I am not calling you arrogant or annoying in any shape or form, just to be clear on this, okay?).

There is no such thing as a "muslim" name. There are arabic names, yes, but arabs can be also be Christian, Jewish, wiccan, Buddhist or whatever. Besides, my last name is Katz, which is one of most common Jewish surnames in the world, but I'm not a Jew. See my point? Why in the world would you believe Obama is a muslim? That just doesn't make any sense at all. And if he was, so what? If that's what makes him happy, he should just go for it. The whole Obama is a muslim thing has been debunked over and over again, and sources which mention him as a muslim are questionable at best.

Addy wrote:

Quote :

] Oh yeah, a theocracy... we had that here in Europe back in the Dark Ages

I was not referring to the Dark Ages I should have been more clear on that, maybe I was not clear but what I was referring to has never happened on this earth and never will. Im talking about a place where everybody is a believer of Jesus Christ that there are no other religions. The best way to describe what i was trying to say is "Heaven on Earth" but if you want this rotting decaying place you can have it.

Again, that's what people tried to do in the Middle Ages/Dark Ages. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? That was all about getting rid of non-Christians, or converting them to Christianity.

I don't see how the earth is a "rotting decaying place," but there are definitely things that could be better. If everyone thought of the earth in that way it would get even worse.

Addy wrote:

Quote :

]you suggest everyone should be Christian? That is pretty arrogant if you ask me

In a perfect world yes, In the real world It aint gonna happen, but when I say Christian I mean Followers of Jesus Christ, not the stereotypical Christian. But Ill bow my "arrogant" ass out

Why is that then? Are Christians by definition better people than agnostics, atheists, Jews, muslims or wiccans?

If the mods want me to stick a sock in it, I'd comply, but I am enjoying this discussion, and I hope I haven't insulted you Addy. If I did, I'm truly sorry, that wasn't my idea at all.

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Remember the Spanish Inquisition? That was all about getting rid of non-Christians, or converting them to Christianity.

Yeah cuz i was there (kidding) Yeah I remember reading about it in High school, The Crusades were also about that too. I was in no shape or form suggesting that. What I was suggesting is impossible for humanity, lets just leave it at that.

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a lot of "Followers of Jesus Christ" to be arrogant and annoying

That might be because what they believe gives them a certain peace maybe, I dunno

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I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention of attacking you. It's hard to get your message across on the Internet

Its cool, its a big reason why I hate these types of discussions and threads and why I normally dont interject anything serious

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Why is that then? Are Christians by definition better people than agnostics, atheists, Jews, muslims or wiccans?

To answer your question No, because we're all human beings, all flawed

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I don't see how the earth is a "rotting decaying place,"

I am a pessimist in that regards, I dont think our economy is getting better or will get better for along time I think thinking that is a fairy tale. I think our government worries too much about outside our borders instead of making honest efforts to feed the hungry and give homes to the homeless. Theyre too worried about places like Africa, etc... I have to laugh because I read unemployment is at its highest in 30 years that more and more jobs are getting cut or outsourced and the economy is getting better? I need some hard evidence to see it being better before I am of that opinion.

Anyways.... can always agree to disagree

Personally, I didn't vote for Obama based on his spiritual views. In fact, I disagree with him in those regards.

but I am a person who strongly believes in the separation of church and state.

I am a spirtual person, but I do not believe religion has a place in politricks.

I think that a leader's belief system is important, it helps dictate how he or she will lead, Look at Hitler, Castro, Stalin, etc.... Would you rather and Im just using this as an example now.... would you rather have a leader who is sympathetic to the KKK or someone who is a God fearing person who believes Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

To me that is the most important thing I look for with these Crooks I mean Politicans is their sense of morals and beliefs

Thats just me.....


But back on topic............

(I hope)

CRAP! I just wrote an entire post and accidentally hit the back button. Oh well, forget about it.

Dave the Boss wrote:

CRAP! I just wrote an entire post and accidentally hit the back button. Oh well, forget about it.

Oh dammit Dave!!!



I hate it when that happens!


Addy, I understand where you are coming from. Just don't agree. No big deal. We can just agree to 'disagree' on this one huh?

Dave the Boss wrote:

CRAP! I just wrote an entire post and accidentally hit the back button. Oh well, forget about it.

Better off cuz im done with this topic or I should say the detraction from it I should say

Quote :

Addy, I understand where you are coming from. Just don't agree. No big deal. We can just agree to 'disagree' on this one huh?

I guess

Addy wrote:

Dave the Boss wrote:

CRAP! I just wrote an entire post and accidentally hit the back button. Oh well, forget about it.

Better off cuz im done with this topic or I should say the detraction from it I should say

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Addy, I understand where you are coming from. Just don't agree. No big deal. We can just agree to 'disagree' on this one huh?

I guess

You guess?

I hope you don't want to argue more. I find that pretty unproductive to be honest.

We each see it how we do.


Let's put it to you this way ...

Back in England before the great USA was started. Theocracy was the rule of the day. The church RULED the continent of Europe. Even the king was the church's little pawn.

There is no greater religious persecution than when RELIGION RULES the nation. Because 'religion' is not tolerant of others ... even though God is.

Heck dude, the REAL God and Jesus don't like religion anyway. It gives God a bad name.

Jesus loved the sinners dude. It was the pharisees that he condemned. Those ones that were 'ruling the nation' in the name of religion.


RELIGION HAS NO FREEKING PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!!!!


There ... I said it.


Hope I didn't offend.

Metallic Blaze wrote:

Addy wrote:

Dave the Boss wrote:

CRAP! I just wrote an entire post and accidentally hit the back button. Oh well, forget about it.

Better off cuz im done with this topic or I should say the detraction from it I should say

Quote :

Addy, I understand where you are coming from. Just don't agree. No big deal. We can just agree to 'disagree' on this one huh?

I guess

You guess?

I hope you don't want to argue more. I find that pretty unproductive to be honest.

We each see it how we do.


Let's put it to you this way ...

Back in England before the great USA was started. Theocracy was the rule of the day. The church RULED the continent of Europe. Even the king was the church's little pawn.

There is no greater religious persecution than when RELIGION RULES the nation. Because 'religion' is not tolerant of others ... even though God is.

Heck dude, the REAL God and Jesus don't like religion anyway. It gives God a bad name.

Jesus loved the sinners dude. It was the pharisees that he condemned. Those ones that were 'ruling the nation' in the name of religion.


RELIGION HAS NO FREEKING PLACE IN GOVERNMENT!!!!


There ... I said it.


Hope I didn't offend.

First of all what i mean by "I guess" is that I was disappointed that you sidestepped my question, No I dont want to argue anymore, in fact this thread has given me such a bad taste to the point that I am not sure I wanna come back here (meaning this board) anymore but Im replying to this one last time after that don't bother because I am not gonna read it or reply to it, I'm even sorry for opening my damned mouth. I did not say Religion has a place in government. What I said was I believe that What a leader believes helps dictate how that person will lead. I never said anything about Religion, You know as well as I do that God, that Jesus is not a Religion but a Truth! I'm not talking about giving the Church power give me some credit come on.....

tl;dr (recent debate)

Gimme something above 30ºN (but below 60ºN) and within reasonable proximity to water I'll be happy.

Addy, don't get your feelings hurt.

I was just being honest about how I believe.

I know you were not talking about 'giving the church any power'.

But what you present will do just that! It's basically an oxy-moron. You don't want it - but by doing it, you get it anyway.

See what I mean? I know you mean well.

and I will also say that what I said was in no way 'personal' to you. Just how I feel about it on the whole. That's one reason I can't stand the extreme right. They want the church to RUN America!!!!

Metallic Blaze wrote:

That's one reason I can't stand the extreme right. They want the church to RUN America!!!!

That is complete and utter bull hockey (I am a conservative Christian which is why I must say something). We like people of good moral convictions to run America (as long as they're elected by the people-we are a Democracy after all-at least for now). We conservative Christians are not demanding people follow Jesus or die. We are not demanding that people go to church or be thrown in prison. We just want to elect people who we feel would do the right and moral thing (and that happens to be people who share our beliefs) and follow the statutes of our constitution. No conservative in his/her right mind would ever suggest that the Church run everything. That's not even possible because there is no Universal church. Conservative Christians run the gammit from Catholic to Baptist to Methodist to Episcapalian, etc. etc. There would be no way to decide which church should run things so you're fear is baseless. Also the "extreme right" (sorry but extreme right is anarchy and the majority of the people you call extreme would never suggest getting rid of government completly or bring back the Middle Ages) are strong supporters of the Constitution and would never do anything to compromise it's integrity and that includes mandating any one religion over the other.

I like you MB but your thinking on this matter is heavily flawed and I've heard the argument too many times to keep silent on it.

Okay ... well like I said to Addy above ... we'll just have to agree to 'disagree' on this one - and still be friends.

That's why political convo can be haphazard - and I try to stay out of it much of the time.

Though I will daresay that apart from just a few folks the board as a whole agrees with me. I know my European brothers do anyway.

And by the way, it's not nice to say someone's 'thinking is flawed' - just because it's different than your own. Typical right wing extremism there. Not surprising coming from a self-professed right-winger though.

I'm out on this one.

Quote :

We like people of good moral convictions to run
America (as long as they're elected by the people-we are a Democracy
after all-at least for now). We conservative Christians are not
demanding people follow Jesus or die. We are not demanding that people
go to church or be thrown in prison. We just want to elect people who
we feel would do the right and moral thing (and that happens to be
people who share our beliefs) and follow the statutes of our
constitution. No conservative in his/her right mind would ever suggest
that the Church run everything. That's not even possible because there
is no Universal church. Conservative Christians run the gammit from
Catholic to Baptist to Methodist to Episcapalian, etc. etc. There would
be no way to decide which church should run things

Dallas- Thank you man this is mostly what i was trying to say

MB- You got a pm

all in all in all this I have tried to choose my words carefully I did not want to come off as attacking someone so If I have used poor choice of words and have offended anyone I do apologize

OK, I'll chime in again (and try not to offend anyone).

I sort of see both sides of this equation. I most definitely do NOT want a theocracy governing this country; I look at a person's moral beliefs, not their religion. If their moral beliefs line up with mine I really don't care what their practicing religion is.

I didn't like it when the far right stated they'd refuse to vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon. Excuse me but on most "moral issues" the Mormons are at least as conservative as most Baptists for example. I think it's wrong to not vote for a person simply because that person's "religion" is different from your's.


On the other hand, there's Barack Obama. What I don't like about President Obama is the people he has surrounded himself with and the way he still practices "Chicago Politics" on a national scale. Van Jones and Rev Wright are just two examples of his "inner circle" and this making deals to buy votes for the health care bill is just Chicago politics on a national scale IMO.

My opinion (and it's simply that, nothing more) is that we should vote for people based solely on their track records and what we view as their "character". I really don't care if a person is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu whatever...if I agree with their prior political record and I think they are a person of character, I'd vote for them.

Just my .02.

Addy wrote:

all in all in all this I have tried to choose my words carefully I did not want to come off as attacking someone so If I have used poor choice of words and have offended anyone I do apologize

Cool. I apologize too. Let's just be friends shall we?

Can't we all just get a bong? err um - I mean get along.

Quote :

My opinion (and it's simply that, nothing more) is that we should vote for people based solely on their track records and what we view as their "character". I really don't care if a person is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu whatever...if I agree with their prior political record and I think they are a person of character, I'd vote for them.

I agree 100% with what you said there.

DallasBlack wrote:

We just want to elect people who we feel would do the right and moral thing (and that happens to be people who share our beliefs)

I'm supposed to be working on a presentation, but duty calls, haha.

Okay, let's list some very upstanding Christian leaders with great morals:

Francisco Franco
Corneliu Zelea Codreanu
Romanov dynasty Tzars
Adolf Hitler (raised Christian, supported a form of Christianity called "Positive Christianity," and constantly mentioned Germany's great Christian heritage and culture)
Ferdinand II
Charles Taylor
Augusto Pinochet
Mangosuthu Buthelezi

And not to forget that lovely good ol' American institution the KKK!

My whole point is that you do not have to be a Christian to have moral values, and being a Christian does not mean you have the moral values that are considered as desirable in western society.

I also have to disagree with naming the religious right (ie. Christian right) as extreme right. Extreme rightwing ideologies are decisively different from religious/social conservatism. I completely agree with MB that religion has no place in government, for the same reasons as the great John Locke gives (who was also a devout Christian). Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, did the right thing when he kicked all religion out of government (unfortunately a religious party is in power now, but it's only a matter of time until the army takes over).

Im outta here

However I will say that there's just something about Nancy Pelosi that just makes me want to smack her.

I don't really care what she's saying there's just something about that arrogant, pinched-up, shrewish face that really gets under my skin.

The other day she made a comment (and I'm paraphrasing here) like "We'll pass this bill then everyone will understand."

Like we typical Americans are too dim to understand this bill now. That attitude totally pisses me off.

tohostudios wrote:

OK, I'll chime in again (and try not to offend anyone).

I sort of see both sides of this equation. I most definitely do NOT want a theocracy governing this country; I look at a person's moral beliefs, not their religion. If their moral beliefs line up with mine I really don't care what their practicing religion is.

I didn't like it when the far right stated they'd refuse to vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon. Excuse me but on most "moral issues" the Mormons are at least as conservative as most Baptists for example. I think it's wrong to not vote for a person simply because that person's "religion" is different from your's.


On the other hand, there's Barack Obama. What I don't like about President Obama is the people he has surrounded himself with and the way he still practices "Chicago Politics" on a national scale. Van Jones and Rev Wright are just two examples of his "inner circle" and this making deals to buy votes for the health care bill is just Chicago politics on a national scale IMO.

My opinion (and it's simply that, nothing more) is that we should vote for people based solely on their track records and what we view as their "character". I really don't care if a person is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu whatever...if I agree with their prior political record and I think they are a person of character, I'd vote for them.

Just my .02.

THANK YOU! That's the post I've been waiting for.

All this talk about religion and politics reminds me of a line in Trading Spouses I heard when I was switching channels this morning. A fundamentalist Christian woman moves in with a "spiritual" family:

Man: "So you are okay with people being Buddhist or Hindu or Jewish?"
Woman: "Yeah of course I am, as long as they accept that Jesus is the son of God, died on the cross, was resurrected three days later and accept Him as their savior."

I had a good laugh.