THE SELL OUT THREAD!

The whole point of making music is for it to be sold. Artists make a career out of music to make money off of doing what they love. The charge of selling out is associated with an artist or band releasing an album that incorporates "stuff" (sound, style, instruments, image) that wasn't on the last release, and more often than not that "stuff" is the natural progression of the artistic process. Many musicians I know are extremely talented and can and do play a veriety of different musical styles, but stick to a commerially viable style when it comes to performing and recording because they are professional musicians working in their chosen career. I think the blame for selling out rests squarly on the shoulders of the music listening public. They make the decision on whether or not the next release is a sell out or even released. Record companies are businesses and they will make money off of an artist/band and that is that. If the artist/band isn't selling they will change to meet expectations or be replaced by someone who will, and that is usually written into their contract.

Many bands change and some even radically change, but that doesn't mean they sold out. Selling out is putting the money and fame ahead of the music. Sell outs usually make career ending decisions because they followed the money and not their heart.

Hmm. Good post, bro.

Eyesore wrote:

Selvmord wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Selvmord wrote:

She's not metal, but Alanis Morrisette has to be the biggest sellout in the history of music. She was doing Canadian Pop in the vien of Paula Abdule, then all of a sudden she changed her look and her sound during the whole grunge thing, and all of a sudden she's some sort of genius!

Nope. Sorry. Sellout 100% in my book. Never liked or respected her in any way shape or form, and glad she's dropped off the musical radar....

Lame. She was also a teenager, one that was pressure into that sort of style. She recorded her first demo tape at like 8 years old, just her and a piano. She was 21 or 22 when Jagged Little Pill came out. She was smarter and more driven to not sell out. You've got it backwards.

And for the record, she hasn't dropped off the musical radar. Her latest album debuted in the top 10 on the Billboard charts.

Spin it any way you want, she sucks......

You can't spin fact. It just is.

Thanks Mr. O'Reiley!

journeyman wrote:

The whole point of making music is for it to be sold. Artists make a career out of music to make money off of doing what they love. The charge of selling out is associated with an artist or band releasing an album that incorporates "stuff" (sound, style, instruments, image) that wasn't on the last release, and more often than not that "stuff" is the natural progression of the artistic process. Many musicians I know are extremely talented and can and do play a variety of different musical styles, but stick to a commercially viable style when it comes to performing and recording because they are professional musicians working in their chosen career. I think the blame for selling out rests squarely on the shoulders of the music listening public. They make the decision on whether or not the next release is a sell out or even released. Record companies are businesses and they will make money off of an artist/band and that is that. If the artist/band isn't selling they will change to meet expectations or be replaced by someone who will, and that is usually written into their contract.

Many bands change and some even radically change, but that doesn't mean they sold out. Selling out is putting the money and fame ahead of the music. Sell outs usually make career ending decisions because they followed the money and not their heart.

Very intriguing. You bring up some very good points.

journeyman wrote:

The whole point of making music is for it to be sold. Artists make a career out of music to make money off of doing what they love. The charge of selling out is associated with an artist or band releasing an album that incorporates "stuff" (sound, style, instruments, image) that wasn't on the last release, and more often than not that "stuff" is the natural progression of the artistic process. Many musicians I know are extremely talented and can and do play a veriety of different musical styles, but stick to a commerially viable style when it comes to performing and recording because they are professional musicians working in their chosen career. I think the blame for selling out rests squarly on the shoulders of the music listening public. They make the decision on whether or not the next release is a sell out or even released. Record companies are businesses and they will make money off of an artist/band and that is that. If the artist/band isn't selling they will change to meet expectations or be replaced by someone who will, and that is usually written into their contract.

Many bands change and some even radically change, but that doesn't mean they sold out. Selling out is putting the money and fame ahead of the music. Sell outs usually make career ending decisions because they followed the money and not their heart.

I dont actually agree with a few things here. You dont set a goal to sell music. When you form a band you should play music for the love of the music not to sell records. Look at John Mayer the guy is one heck of a blues guitar player. But did we know of the John Mayer Trio before we knew of John Mayer the pop artist? I dont know if it was him that was putting out pop songs like "Your Body is a Wonderland, Bigger then my Body, Clarity, and Daughters". But the guy is a blues player first.

If a band radically changes and its to a more mainstream sound then they are producing records to sell, therefore selling out. How often do you see bands go from mainstream to a totally different stlye. Do bands go backward? People love music it doesnt have to be mainstream or popular for people to like it. Thats why there are different genres for different people. If the music is good we will find it. There are tons of bands who have made a good name for themselves by hard work and just putting out killer records, and touring to support there record.

You don't make music to sell, the music sells itself..

Ah, but the goal to play music doesn't have anything to do with playing it professionally. When you make that choice, money is important.

Eyesore wrote:

Ah, but the goal to play music doesn't have anything to do with playing it professionally. When you make that choice, money is important.

Eye you almost have 10k posts WOW! Congrats you're a beast..

If you are a studio musician then yes you play to get paid. That's your job. I have seen tons of interviews where the bands tell you its all about the music. A lot of bands pay for there albums right out of there own pockets. This is being true to your music and hoping the fans will like it and buy it.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Ah, but the goal to play music doesn't have anything to do with playing it professionally. When you make that choice, money is important.

Eye you almost have 10k posts WOW! Congrats you're a beast..

A dumb beast, sure.

Quote :

If you are a studio musician then yes you play to get paid. That's your job. I have seen tons of interviews where the bands tell you its all about the music. A lot of bands pay for there albums right out of there own pockets. This is being true to your music and hoping the fans will like it and buy it.

You're apparently living on a different musical planet, because you're describing like 0.01% of the musicians out there.

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Ah, but the goal to play music doesn't have anything to do with playing it professionally. When you make that choice, money is important.

Eye you almost have 10k posts WOW! Congrats you're a beast..

A dumb beast, sure.

Quote :

If you are a studio musician then yes you play to get paid. That's your job. I have seen tons of interviews where the bands tell you its all about the music. A lot of bands pay for there albums right out of there own pockets. This is being true to your music and hoping the fans will like it and buy it.

You're apparently living on a different musical planet, because you're describing like 0.01% of the musicians out there.

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

MetalRob331 wrote:

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

That's all fine and dandy. Now quit your day job for a year and give me this same rosey story. =)

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

That's all fine and dandy. Now quit your day job for a year and give me this same rosey story. =)

I totally agree with you that its not easy, and bands have a huge decisions to make when it comes to money. There are also musicians who become homeless and work at fastfood places just to play the music they love.

Most of the bands that were mentioned already had a name for themselves, therefore it really didnt matter what they put out its going to sell like hotcakes anyway. Once you make a name, the name sells the music doesn't.

journeyman wrote:

The whole point of making music is for it to be sold. Artists make a career out of music to make money off of doing what they love. The charge of selling out is associated with an artist or band releasing an album that incorporates "stuff" (sound, style, instruments, image) that wasn't on the last release, and more often than not that "stuff" is the natural progression of the artistic process. Many musicians I know are extremely talented and can and do play a veriety of different musical styles, but stick to a commerially viable style when it comes to performing and recording because they are professional musicians working in their chosen career. I think the blame for selling out rests squarly on the shoulders of the music listening public. They make the decision on whether or not the next release is a sell out or even released. Record companies are businesses and they will make money off of an artist/band and that is that. If the artist/band isn't selling they will change to meet expectations or be replaced by someone who will, and that is usually written into their contract.

Many bands change and some even radically change, but that doesn't mean they sold out. Selling out is putting the money and fame ahead of the music. Sell outs usually make career ending decisions because they followed the money and not their heart.

Very well crafted and articulate argument. Kudos, brother.

journeyman, I thought you gave an excellent response to an issue of artist selling out and what selling out really means. Forget the ascept of money for a moment, if you are musician or painter, you want to have your music heard or painting to be exhibited or else why throw out there for public scrunity. You want as many people as possible to be exposed to your art, that is why it is created, to try to connect with an audience.

I don't consider selling out if you incorporate modern sounds, instruments, or production. That is just an artist growing and incorporating tools that are available to them.

What I do consider selling out is to follow whatever lastest trend is by the nose. I agree that when an artist is dishonest not only with themselves but also their audience the fans can smell it and stay away.

Money is very important and as long as the music industry has existed their has always been a push and pull between commerce and art.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

That's all fine and dandy. Now quit your day job for a year and give me this same rosey story. =)

I totally agree with you that its not easy, and bands have a huge decisions to make when it comes to money. There are also musicians who become homeless and work at fastfood places just to play the music they love.

People may love playing buckets with pencil-drum sticks in the subways and on street corners, begging for change, but I don't see much intelligence in that. Haha.

Quote :

Most of the bands that were mentioned already had a name for themselves, therefore it really didnt matter what they put out its going to sell like hotcakes anyway. Once you make a name, the name sells the music doesn't.

I'm not sure you really understand how the industry works. Even if something sells like hotcakes, that doesn't mean a band/musician will make anything at all. They might make a little, but a $500,000 in that sort of lifestyle is like you busting your ass for 6 months and getting a $5,000 check.

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

That's all fine and dandy. Now quit your day job for a year and give me this same rosey story. =)

I totally agree with you that its not easy, and bands have a huge decisions to make when it comes to money. There are also musicians who become homeless and work at fastfood places just to play the music they love.

People may love playing buckets with pencil-drum sticks in the subways and on street corners, begging for change, but I don't see much intelligence in that. Haha.

Quote :

Most of the bands that were mentioned already had a name for themselves, therefore it really didnt matter what they put out its going to sell like hotcakes anyway. Once you make a name, the name sells the music doesn't.

I'm not sure you really understand how the industry works. Even if something sells like hotcakes, that doesn't mean a band/musician will make anything at all. They might make a little, but a $500,000 in that sort of lifestyle is like you busting your ass for 6 months and getting a $5,000 check.

what i was saying is that bands do nothing but try and make a lifestyle out of there music at any cost even if its playing a few local shows a week therefore not having enough money to feed themselves or have a place to stay.

As far as not knowing the industry well, i know it well enough that bands dont make poop, it takes a lot of time and the right people around you. These artists are doing what they dream of to play in front of 1000's of fans and hear them sing along and to play the music they love, that factor alone is why you get into music. You cant just post your resume and someone calls this isnt a 9-5 job. I said it before music is a way of expressing yourself through the instrument, it isnt supposed to be a job. I understand you sign a contract but you are the band you make the music.

Overall i just think about it from a musicians point of view, you play because you love music not to make money. I had a fulltime job when i was in my band we played on the weekends. If we got discovered so be it. It would be a dream come true, yes, but me and my band members didnt say hey lets write a hit record. That would be selling out to ourselfs. We didnt care what others thought of our music, all we cared about was that we thought it rocked.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

IMO as a musician and being in a previous band. When we played local shows we just wanted our music to be heard, it didnt have to be good and we didnt care about any of that, all we wanted was to go out there jam and so be it. If it got to the point where our music was being taken seriously i dont know how i would react but it would not change my feelings to our music.

When we were auditioning singers this one guy actually said " You're not going to sell records playing this type of music" , thats when i told him its not about selling records its about having fun and playing the music you love to play. Getting paid to play the music you love is a dream I wouldnt consider it a job. Thats only my assessment.

That's all fine and dandy. Now quit your day job for a year and give me this same rosey story. =)

I totally agree with you that its not easy, and bands have a huge decisions to make when it comes to money. There are also musicians who become homeless and work at fastfood places just to play the music they love.

People may love playing buckets with pencil-drum sticks in the subways and on street corners, begging for change, but I don't see much intelligence in that. Haha.

Quote :

Most of the bands that were mentioned already had a name for themselves, therefore it really didnt matter what they put out its going to sell like hotcakes anyway. Once you make a name, the name sells the music doesn't.

I'm not sure you really understand how the industry works. Even if something sells like hotcakes, that doesn't mean a band/musician will make anything at all. They might make a little, but a $500,000 in that sort of lifestyle is like you busting your ass for 6 months and getting a $5,000 check.

what i was saying is that bands do nothing but try and make a lifestyle out of there music at any cost even if its playing a few local shows a week therefore not having enough money to feed themselves or have a place to stay.

As far as not knowing the industry well, i know it well enough that bands dont make poop, it takes a lot of time and the right people around you. These artists are doing what they dream of to play in front of 1000's of fans and hear them sing along and to play the music they love, that factor alone is why you get into music. You cant just post your resume and someone calls this isnt a 9-5 job. I said it before music is a way of expressing yourself through the instrument, it isnt supposed to be a job. I understand you sign a contract but you are the band you make the music.

Overall i just think about it from a musicians point of view, you play because you love music not to make money. I had a fulltime job when i was in my band we played on the weekends. If we got discovered so be it. It would be a dream come true, yes, but me and my band members didnt say hey lets write a hit record. That would be selling out to ourselfs. We didnt care what others thought of our music, all we cared about was that we thought it rocked.

I didn’t mean to imply that music is all about selling your wares, but the decision to go pro means that the music is what creates your paycheck. Those who do get a “deal” face compromise because they signed a contract to do “certain things”. As long as the “certain things” are being done the artist is usually free to do as they please. Even big name artists are bound to the papers they signed, look at how Aerosmith brought in Desmond Child and another producer at the request of the record label, and they didn’t have a choice. I have a great deal of respect for the band because they persevered and despite the odds managed to sound like Aerosmith regardless of the meddling of the record company. More to my point record companies employ people who analyze our listening habits and preferences and with that information go out and find bands that will conform to that data or require bands already under their influence to do the deed. Either way the record company could care less as to who is selling, just as long as they are selling. The whole point of “selling out” becomes a multidimensional conundrum.
I wish there was some way we could take back control…

Agree, when you sign anything they have you by the balls. Especially if a band goes from one record label to say a bigger one. If someone is to make your dreams come true I guess they can tell you what to do..

The way i see it is that you make music that you yourself would listen to and enjoy, not for other people but your own selfish intent to hear that music not the other way round as some bands have it. Music that reflects your own tastes.

Now say if a band is a couple of albums into their career and this new band comes along and becomes successful and that other band loves the music of that new successful band and decides to sound more like them on their next album, then i don't think you can accuse them of selling out. Because they are making music they would like to hear, it's happened many times before and is easily confused with selling out. It's when bands are making music that they don't like then that is being dishonest to themselves and if it's trendy music then that's selling out.

I think bands are going to naturally change and progress over time for the most part. Some refuse to change at all, but I wonder if they are really happy doing that or if they are doing it just to say "we never sold out! We stayed true!" I mean, seriously, who here is 100% the same person they were 5, 10, or 20 years ago. Just about anyone who says they haven't changed at all is either lying, boring, or in a coma. You experience new things, you find new things you like, and you mix them in. Doesn't mean its a sell out.

Case in point...Bon Jovi's last album Lost Highway. Now, it has a definite Nashville vibe to it (note, I didn't say country...), but does that mean they were trying to cater to some specific audience? No, it means they wanted to work with some different writers and try some new things out, and it became what it became. But when people say Bon Jovi "sold out and went country", they have no clue what they are talking about. (NOTHING on that Bon Jovi album would be played on a pure country station...trust me...I ran one for 8 years.) But, how many times can they re-write "Runaway", "Dead Or Alive" or "Living On A Prayer"? And, if they did, wouldn't THAT be selling out? Repeating a formula that always worked and made money?

Many people say Metallica sold out, but did they? I mean really? If they were selling out, would they have made St. Anger? Maybe they just didn't want to play Puppets again and again on the next 5 albums. Doesn't mean I have to like it or buy it, but it doesn't mean they sold out, either.


Arttie

rattpoison wrote:

The way i see it is that you make music that you yourself would listen to and enjoy, not for other people but your own selfish intent to hear that music not the other way round as some bands have it. Music that reflects your own tastes.

Now say if a band is a couple of albums into their career and this new band comes along and becomes successful and that other band loves the music of that new successful band and decides to sound more like them on their next album, then i don't think you can accuse them of selling out. Because they are making music they would like to hear, it's happened many times before and is easily confused with selling out. It's when bands are making music that they don't like then that is being dishonest to themselves and if it's trendy music then that's selling out.

this is exactly how i see it, you make music that you enjoy!!

Stender wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

7 Seconds. They put out a couple of U2ish sounding albums in the late 80's that were a far cry from the oldschool hardcore I knew them for. Thank God they've regained their form.

I love your new avatar man.

yeah, didnt 7 secs have this weird emocore phase at somepoint? I was surprised to hear how good some of the new stuff is lately.

Thanks. I've actually been thinking about getting another hawk myself and that picture reminds me of me and my friends back in the day. That emoish period you're referring to is probably the same U2ish one I was talking about. They got lost there for about three albums. Thank God the last two have kicked hardcore ass again. As you can probably tell from my usename they have been my favorite hardcore band since the early 80's when The Crew first came out.

ultmetal wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

I remember the bassist from The Crucified, a band that was thrash metal, in the 1990's was sporting a "heavy metal sucks" sticker on his bass while playing with Stavesacre. Right! They all rode the popular heavy metal bandwagon while it lasted then when it was no longer the cool thing, they jumped onto a different bandwagon. To me that is selling out yourself and your fans.

Well that's an easy one to explain. I don't think The Crucified ever accepted any kind of metal tag. They were a hardcore/punk band through and through. They just happened to have a little crossover sound to them on certain albums and that attracted some metal fans to them.

Hardly. They were a thrash band "through and through" on "Pillars of Humanity", the only album that bass player played on. They were no different than 100 other thrash bands with a punk/hardcore influence. Nuclear Assault, S.O.D., Anthrax, Hirax, Overkill, etc.

Oh... Well I didn't know you were referring to a bass player that only played on that one album. Even so though many hardcore bands that later played some crossover didn't care for the heavy metal tag at all. They thought of bands like Def Leppard and Bon Jovi when they thought about the heavy metal label. They wanted to distance themselves from that stuff as much as possible. And punks weren't the only one's as I had quite a few thrash/speed metal guys who were the same way. They would wear a I hate heavy metal shirt in a second. Don't forget they (we) were all pretty young back then. I also had many friends who gladly considered everyone from Nelson and Nelson to Venom as just plain heavy metal. Those were the good old days.

7thSecond wrote:

Stender wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

7 Seconds. They put out a couple of U2ish sounding albums in the late 80's that were a far cry from the oldschool hardcore I knew them for. Thank God they've regained their form.

I love your new avatar man.

yeah, didnt 7 secs have this weird emocore phase at somepoint? I was surprised to hear how good some of the new stuff is lately.

Thanks. I've actually been thinking about getting another hawk myself and that picture reminds me of me and my friends back in the day. That emoish period you're referring to is probably the same U2ish one I was talking about. They got lost there for about three albums. Thank God the last two have kicked hardcore ass again. As you can probably tell from my usename they have been my favorite hardcore band since the early 80's when The Crew first came out.

Really! you should totally get another one bro. I just cut my hair for job interviews but you can see how long it was(about 7-8 inch) in the picture thread on pg. 29 I think...anyway I may get a hawk after I get a new job nailed.

7 secs were good, but I would say my alltime fav hardcore is G.B.H.

Stender wrote:

7 secs were good, but I would say my alltime fav hardcore is G.B.H.

Good band. I saw them live back on the No Need to Panic tour years ago. Really friendly guys with that killer U.K. accent.

Great thread, I wish I had more time to spend on HOM so I don't have to take all this in at once (what a work out!). I believe whether one has sold out or not is always something that is debatable. Sure some bands obiously sold out, while others all comes down to opinions. The bands I feel have sold out in the past are:

Metallica, Queensryche, Megadeth, The Cruicified (after reading Ult's post), Faith No More, Savatage (Fight For The Rock, although I actually like that album), Rob Halford (Two), and others I can't think of right now.