THE SELL OUT THREAD!

DeathCult wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

How many of us grew up listening to thrash and brutal death metal, but now--pushing 40 or beyond--listen to mellow stuff like Sarah McLachlan or Lisa Gerrard? It's human nature. There are some hold-outs, of course, and those people tend to be bitter a-holes.

I'm one of those bitter a-holes so I'll just refrain from commenting.

I dont consider myself a bitter sfincter, I just dont think age dictates not listening to certain types of music anymore. Ill listen to metal til I die.

Well, that's not what I meant at all. I never listened to death metal when I was younger, but at 33 I do. I wasn't talking about listening habits. If you were a musician, playing death metal, and you were a big Foo Fighters fan, it's only going to be natural that you want to create something like that. It happens.

Eyesore wrote:

DeathCult wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

How many of us grew up listening to thrash and brutal death metal, but now--pushing 40 or beyond--listen to mellow stuff like Sarah McLachlan or Lisa Gerrard? It's human nature. There are some hold-outs, of course, and those people tend to be bitter a-holes.

I'm one of those bitter a-holes so I'll just refrain from commenting.

I dont consider myself a bitter sfincter, I just dont think age dictates not listening to certain types of music anymore. Ill listen to metal til I die.

Well, that's not what I meant at all. I never listened to death metal when I was younger, but at 33 I do. I wasn't talking about listening habits. If you were a musician, playing death metal, and you were a big Foo Fighters fan, it's only going to be natural that you want to create something like that. It happens.

Ohhh, I gotcha. You mean checking out different styles of music later on down the road instead of sticking with one style the whole time, right?

spectrefate wrote:

The Belladonna thing was a cash thing. Big deal. For the first time since '92, Anthrax fans got something decent for their money. Those Bush albums are very poor and I for one am glad he is gone.

i disagree. those 4 albums were great & showcased some of Benente's best work. now that Bush is gone however, his replacement sounds very similar to him in a lot of respects. so you'll have to wait until they drop him for Belladonna again in 2015.

anyway, this wasn't about whether or not people prefer Bush/Belladonna, old or new sound. it was about selling out.

Quote :

How many of us grew up listening to thrash and brutal death metal, but now--pushing 40 or beyond--listen to mellow stuff like Sarah McLachlan or Lisa Gerrard?

Uh........speak for yourself!

Stryper with their album that came out in the early 90's where they tried to appear bad with weird facial hair and a different message from what they were presenting earliar with their career.


I guess Amy Grant also with her more pop direction she took in the early 90's as well.

Dont get me wrong I love both those artists though. And Who can seriosly blame anybody for selling out?...we would all do it to I'm sure. To keep getting better at music in general, I believe artists are required to change a little.

How about Avenged Sevenfold? These guys were pretty heavy with very harsh vocals and metalcore music. There releases Sounding the Seventh Trumpet and Waking the Fallen were pretty much metalcore. I dont know if it had anything to do with Shadows the lead singers vocal problems but these guys transformed from nobodies to one huge band.

She's not metal, but Alanis Morrisette has to be the biggest sellout in the history of music. She was doing Canadian Pop in the vien of Paula Abdule, then all of a sudden she changed her look and her sound during the whole grunge thing, and all of a sudden she's some sort of genius!

Nope. Sorry. Sellout 100% in my book. Never liked or respected her in any way shape or form, and glad she's dropped off the musical radar....

I will mention some that could be up for argument.

Chicago, ZZ Top, and Steve Miller

Journey, Genesis, Yes, Rush

xyz wrote:

Journey, Genesis, Yes, Rush

I agree with Journey and Genesis def.

MetalRob331 wrote:

ZZ Top

Yes, but if they hadn't sold out, we w ouldn't have the genius that is "Eliminator".

xyz wrote:

Rush

I don't think they sold so much as branched out in a new direction, such is the nature of prog

Schbopo wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

ZZ Top

Yes, but if they hadn't sold out, we w ouldn't have the genius that is "Eliminator".

Im not a huge fan of Eliminator some good songs but not that old bluesy rock top that my dad used to crank. Cd's like Deguello and Tres Hombres are masterpieces.

Eyesore wrote:

How many of us grew up listening to thrash and brutal death metal, but now--pushing 40 or beyond--listen to mellow stuff like Sarah McLachlan or Lisa Gerrard? It's human nature. There are some hold-outs, of course, and those people tend to be bitter a-holes.

HEY! I'm not bitter!

Lots of bands have purposely changed styles in order to sell more records. Sometimes it is about getting older, tastes changing, progressing as a musician, etc. However, there are also those bands and releases which were purposely made to break into a trend in order to push more copies. Many times it's not even the artists themselves that chose this but their record companies. When you are locked into a big contract with Sony, Disney, or some other big corporate giant, you don't have a choice. The suits tell you what to do and if you don't listen, you get royally screwed.

Raven are a good example. They were growing in popularity in the early 1980's. They had a dedicated fan base and metal was getting more and more popular in that era. They released three fantastic speed metal albums and had a minor hit with a song on their third record. Atlantic/Sony noticed them and signed them to a big record deal. With that deal came the expectation of record sales. Sony isn't into it for the love of the music. They want to make money. Raven were finally bullied into going into a pop metal direction with "The Pack is Back". Twisted Sister had success with a similar formula in 1984, so why not Raven? It failed miserably and the fans rejected them. They lost their fan base and things were never the same again, even though they started putting out great metal records again with "Mad", "Lifes a Bi+ch" and "Nothing Exceeds Like Excess". Of course, when they didn't sell platinum they were dropped by Sony and picked up by an smaller company, Combat.

The same thing happened to Savatage. I mean, c'mon! "Fight for the Rock". Wasn't this the same band that gave us the classic "Sirens" and "Power of the Night"?

Other times it has nothing to do with the record company. Molly Hatchet were huge in the late 70's on into the mid 80's. They were popular with Southern Rock fans, and like Blackfoot, had also gained the respect of the heavy metal crowds. By their fifth record they just weren't selling like they had on their first two albums. They started blaming their songwriting, they stated wondering if their style was outdated, the even started blaming each other. Ahhh, but .38 Special was selling well. They had gone for a crossover pop rock sound with great success and were no longer playing Southern rock, so Molly Hatchet attempted this as well. In 1984 "The Deed is Done" was released. While it's a decent rock album, it's not what the core fans wanted and the album bombed.

It happens. I at least respect these artists above for admitting that this was what they were attempting to do with those albums.

Blackfoot - Siago
Kiss - Dynasty
Ted Nugent - Penetrator
Def Leppard - Slang
Judas Priest - Turbo
Anvil - Strength of Steel
Twisted Sister - Love is for Suckers
Holy Soldier - Promise Man
etc. etc. etc.

What I dislike is bands that lie about their past. It was very popular in the 1990's to deny you were ever a heavy metal band. Heavy metal became a dirty word in the mid-to-late 90's. Bands like Def Leppard, Stryper, Dokken and Holy Soldier were claiming they were "never really heavy metal bands." I remember the bassist from The Crucified, a band that was thrash metal, in the 1990's was sporting a "heavy metal sucks" sticker on his bass while playing with Stavesacre. Right! They all rode the popular heavy metal bandwagon while it lasted then when it was no longer the cool thing, they jumped onto a different bandwagon. To me that is selling out yourself and your fans.

It was actually reading interviews with Def Leppard and Holy Soldier where they were denying that they were ever metal bands that inspired me to write the song "Never" in 1997.

Quote :

NEVER
What’s it worth, what is the cost, sell myself, integrity lost. Keeping up with the trends, changing styles, it never ends. I was this but now I am that. Never me, deny my past. Selling out to the crowds, circle goes around and around
to sellout, SELLOUT
In the Land of Never (2x)
Looking back on what was, then apologize to you my friend. Look at me, I’m the focus. Integrity is not for us. Sell more units to please the suits. Fill their pockets, forget the Truth. No matter what be on the charts. What’s it worth and what is the cost to sellout,
SELLOUT
In the Land of Never (2x)
For a price go to the top, SELLOUT
In the Land of Never, Never
What’s it worth - what is the cost
Sell myself, integrity lost. Keeping up with the trends, changing styles, it never ends. I was this but now I am that. Never me, deny my past. Selling out to the crowds, circle goes around and around to
sellout, SELLOUT.
In the Land of Never (2x)
For a price go to the top, SELLOUT
In the Land of Never, NEVER!

I may be pushing 40 but if you ever catch me listening to Sarah McLachlan you can feel free to put a bullet in my head because I've obviously lost my mind.

By the way, Scott, "Never" happens to be my fave Ultimatum song. I agree with those lyrics, and everything you just said in your previous post, 100 percent. Yes, some bands jump on bandwagons willingly in order to stay "trendy" (Bride comes immediately to mind, as does Dokken when they did SHADOWLIFE and Warrant during their mid 90s ULTRAPHOBIC/BELLY TO BELLY period) but others are pushed in that direction by record label suits who basically give them no choice.

Raven's PACK IS BACK debacle is the perfect example of being forced to 'sell out," the band has always been very vocal about how that album was basically a product forced on them by the record label. I have an interview with John Gallagher somewhere where he sez that when Atlantic signed them they didn't look at Raven for what they WERE, they looked at them for what they COULD BE. He said "They wanted us to be KISS meets Bon Jovi... not a good thing."

Savatage have similar horror stories about their FIGHT FOR THE ROCK experience, and hey, they were signed to Atlantic too, weren't they? What was that label thinking??

Fat Freddy wrote:

I may be pushing 40 but if you ever catch me listening to Sarah McLachlan you can feel free to put a bullet in my head because I've obviously lost my mind.

By the way, Scott, "Never" happens to be my fave Ultimatum song. I agree with those lyrics, and everything you just said in your previous post, 100 percent. Yes, some bands jump on bandwagons willingly in order to stay "trendy" (Bride comes immediately to mind, as does Dokken when they did SHADOWLIFE and Warrant during their mid 90s ULTRAPHOBIC/BELLY TO BELLY period) but others are pushed in that direction by record label suits who basically give them no choice.

Raven's PACK IS BACK debacle is the perfect example of being forced to 'sell out," the band has always been very vocal about how that album was basically a product forced on them by the record label. I have an interview with John Gallagher somewhere where he sez that when Atlantic signed them they didn't look at Raven for what they WERE, they looked at them for what they COULD BE. He said "They wanted us to be KISS meets Bon Jovi... not a good thing."

Savatage have similar horror stories about their FIGHT FOR THE ROCK experience, and hey, they were signed to Atlantic too, weren't they? What was that label thinking??

Atlantic Records is infamous for this. They did it to a lot of artists. Atlantic and Epic records are basically Sony Corporation. Ted Nugent and Twisted Sister have similar stories about Atlantic Records and their record producers.

I agree with your assement, ULT. I never considered KISS a sell out even something as calulated as " Dynasty" simply because KISS never have claimed to be purist and as ULT stated they very honest and upfront about their motives.

Atlantic Records is strange that a they sign a band like Raven and Savatage than want them to change their sound, why did they bother signing them to begin with? Twisted Sister wasn't even wanted by Atlantic records and were forced upon the label by an A & R guy according to their Behind the Music episode. Of Course after their " You Can't Stop Rock n Roll" and " Stay Hungry" started selling, they then thought Twisted Sister needed to become more radio friendly. amazing.

I saw someone refer to Genesis as a sell out, but I disagree, I think they naturally evolved into more pop band as Phil Collins years progressed.

CELTIC FROST - Cold Lake
although I actually like this album.

DeathCult wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

DeathCult wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

How many of us grew up listening to thrash and brutal death metal, but now--pushing 40 or beyond--listen to mellow stuff like Sarah McLachlan or Lisa Gerrard? It's human nature. There are some hold-outs, of course, and those people tend to be bitter a-holes.

I'm one of those bitter a-holes so I'll just refrain from commenting.

I dont consider myself a bitter sfincter, I just dont think age dictates not listening to certain types of music anymore. Ill listen to metal til I die.

Well, that's not what I meant at all. I never listened to death metal when I was younger, but at 33 I do. I wasn't talking about listening habits. If you were a musician, playing death metal, and you were a big Foo Fighters fan, it's only going to be natural that you want to create something like that. It happens.

Ohhh, I gotcha. You mean checking out different styles of music later on down the road instead of sticking with one style the whole time, right?

Yeah, that whole art reflects life angle. Look at all the early black metal bands that went techno or industrial (Samael, anyone?). What about Pyogenesis? From doom-death to pop-punk? Bands try different things.

And I wouldn't even say a band like Anthrax sold out when they got Belladonna back in the group. This is income. Is it selling out to move across country for a job, cut ties with friends and family? We all do it. Make those sacrifices. Bands do it, too, and something that sacrifice is a band member, like Bush from Anthrax. Sucks, but a man's gotta eat.

MetalRob331 wrote:

How about Avenged Sevenfold? These guys were pretty heavy with very harsh vocals and metalcore music. There releases Sounding the Seventh Trumpet and Waking the Fallen were pretty much metalcore. I dont know if it had anything to do with Shadows the lead singers vocal problems but these guys transformed from nobodies to one huge band.

New bands are doing this from day one. That's how the industry is with new bands. Not sure it's selling out when that was the goal from the start. That's keeping it real. Haha.

Selvmord wrote:

She's not metal, but Alanis Morrisette has to be the biggest sellout in the history of music. She was doing Canadian Pop in the vien of Paula Abdule, then all of a sudden she changed her look and her sound during the whole grunge thing, and all of a sudden she's some sort of genius!

Nope. Sorry. Sellout 100% in my book. Never liked or respected her in any way shape or form, and glad she's dropped off the musical radar....

Lame. She was also a teenager, one that was pressure into that sort of style. She recorded her first demo tape at like 8 years old, just her and a piano. She was 21 or 22 when Jagged Little Pill came out. She was smarter and more driven to not sell out. You've got it backwards.

And for the record, she hasn't dropped off the musical radar. Her latest album debuted in the top 10 on the Billboard charts.

I am not sure if I would consider Anthrax's brief reunion with Joey Belladonna as a sell out move. From the interviews I read, it seems like they were somewhat cautious, indicating that they were seeing how the tour went as far as long term options with Joey Belladonna. It seemed more like a case of now or never, the label wanted to release another greatest hits album and what a better way to promote than reunite the classic line up for a short tour.

Eyesore wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

How about Avenged Sevenfold? These guys were pretty heavy with very harsh vocals and metalcore music. There releases Sounding the Seventh Trumpet and Waking the Fallen were pretty much metalcore. I dont know if it had anything to do with Shadows the lead singers vocal problems but these guys transformed from nobodies to one huge band.

New bands are doing this from day one. That's how the industry is with new bands. Not sure it's selling out when that was the goal from the start. That's keeping it real. Haha.

If you listen to there debut you wouldnt even be able to tell its the same band. I really dig these guys but i get blown away at how they went from nothing to something. Usually bands progress to a more mainstream sound like say Atreyu i.e. They even went as far as getting a pop producer in Goldfinger frontman John Feldman.

ultmetal wrote:

I remember the bassist from The Crucified, a band that was thrash metal, in the 1990's was sporting a "heavy metal sucks" sticker on his bass while playing with Stavesacre. Right! They all rode the popular heavy metal bandwagon while it lasted then when it was no longer the cool thing, they jumped onto a different bandwagon. To me that is selling out yourself and your fans.

Well that's an easy one to explain. I don't think The Crucified ever accepted any kind of metal tag. They were a hardcore/punk band through and through. They just happened to have a little crossover sound to them on certain albums and that attracted some metal fans to them.

7thSecond wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

I remember the bassist from The Crucified, a band that was thrash metal, in the 1990's was sporting a "heavy metal sucks" sticker on his bass while playing with Stavesacre. Right! They all rode the popular heavy metal bandwagon while it lasted then when it was no longer the cool thing, they jumped onto a different bandwagon. To me that is selling out yourself and your fans.

Well that's an easy one to explain. I don't think The Crucified ever accepted any kind of metal tag. They were a hardcore/punk band through and through. They just happened to have a little crossover sound to them on certain albums and that attracted some metal fans to them.

Hardly. They were a thrash band "through and through" on "Pillars of Humanity", the only album that bass player played on. They were no different than 100 other thrash bands with a punk/hardcore influence. Nuclear Assault, S.O.D., Anthrax, Hirax, Overkill, etc.