Objectively Criticizing Music

Runicen wrote:

At least nobody asked about the ways and means of objectively assessing whether a musical selection had balls...

Possibly because there no such means and ways I know black/death metal fanatics who think Liege Lord, Vicious Rumors or Jag Panzer is ball-less, girly, un-metal stuff.

Runicen wrote:

At least nobody asked about the ways and means of objectively assessing whether a musical selection had balls...

Aahh, memories.......

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

I tend to agree with Vexer. I judge crimes on the damage to others it causes.

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about guys in their 20s who sign a bad contract and then get it together afterwards. I'm talking about guys who still haven't gotten their due for crap they did 40 years ago or more. Yeah, there's a chance it could be rectified, but I wouldn't be betting any cash on it.

And, if you really break it down, ever single crime you listed fits into a category pretty neatly with what I'm talking about: either taking or destroying that which is not yours. Yeah, it's a matter of degrees, but ruining someone's career has to be pretty high on that list. I mean, if we're going to bring rape and arson into the equation, it's like someone being in a position to continually rape someone or keep burning their house down. It's not a big, "all over but the crying" kind of event; it's an ongoing harassment and not a minor one at that. Hell, when compared to armed robbery, all it's missing is the gun and a bad part of town. Robbing someone legally doesn't make it less horrible than some dude accosting you in a back alley with a stolen firearm.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is even a controversial idea. I'm also not sure how I've insulted anyone who is paralyzed. You can ECONOMICALLY paralyze someone and that may not be quite as literally final as the physical state, but it's not exactly pleasant either. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Zdan wrote:

Runicen wrote:

At least nobody asked about the ways and means of objectively assessing whether a musical selection had balls...

Possibly because there no such means and ways I know black/death metal fanatics who think Liege Lord, Vicious Rumors or Jag Panzer is ball-less, girly, un-metal stuff.

I guess I go by the old faithful "I will know what I like when I hear it."

Runicen wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about guys in their 20s who sign a bad contract and then get it together afterwards.  I'm talking about guys who still haven't gotten their due for crap they did 40 years ago or more.  Yeah, there's a chance it could be rectified, but I wouldn't be betting any cash on it.

And, if you really break it down, ever single crime you listed fits into a category pretty neatly with what I'm talking about: either taking or destroying that which is not yours.  Yeah, it's a matter of degrees, but ruining someone's career has to be pretty high on that list.  I mean, if we're going to bring rape and arson into the equation, it's like someone being in a position to continually rape someone or keep burning their house down.  It's not a big, "all over but the crying" kind of event; it's an ongoing harassment and not a minor one at that.  Hell, when compared to armed robbery, all it's missing is the gun and a bad part of town.  Robbing someone legally doesn't make it less horrible than some dude accosting you in a back alley with a stolen firearm.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is even a controversial idea.  I'm also not sure how I've insulted anyone who is paralyzed.  You can ECONOMICALLY paralyze someone and that may not be quite as literally final as the physical state, but it's not exactly pleasant either.  I wouldn't wish that on anybody.  

It's not controversial, it just completely asinine to me to say that ripping someone off is almost as bad as murder, i'm sure almost every person you ask would agree with that.

Also comparing ripping someone off to "raping someone over and over" is incredibly offensive to actual rape victims. I am so sick of people casually throwing the word "rape" around to refer to things that are not even close to the actual definition of rape, which arguably diminishes the seriousness of actual sexual assault.

"economically paralyzed" has to be the most ridiculous phrase i've heard in a long time.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone either, but i'm sure the guys that Ozzy "ripped-off" would never say that what happened to them was almost as bad as murder or rape or anything like that.

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about guys in their 20s who sign a bad contract and then get it together afterwards.  I'm talking about guys who still haven't gotten their due for crap they did 40 years ago or more.  Yeah, there's a chance it could be rectified, but I wouldn't be betting any cash on it.

And, if you really break it down, ever single crime you listed fits into a category pretty neatly with what I'm talking about: either taking or destroying that which is not yours.  Yeah, it's a matter of degrees, but ruining someone's career has to be pretty high on that list.  I mean, if we're going to bring rape and arson into the equation, it's like someone being in a position to continually rape someone or keep burning their house down.  It's not a big, "all over but the crying" kind of event; it's an ongoing harassment and not a minor one at that.  Hell, when compared to armed robbery, all it's missing is the gun and a bad part of town.  Robbing someone legally doesn't make it less horrible than some dude accosting you in a back alley with a stolen firearm.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is even a controversial idea.  I'm also not sure how I've insulted anyone who is paralyzed.  You can ECONOMICALLY paralyze someone and that may not be quite as literally final as the physical state, but it's not exactly pleasant either.  I wouldn't wish that on anybody.  

It's not controversial, it just completely asinine to me to say that ripping someone off is almost as bad as murder, i'm sure almost every person you ask would agree with that.

Also comparing ripping someone off to "raping someone over and over" is incredibly offensive to actual rape victims. I am so sick of people casually throwing the word "rape" around to refer to things that are not even close to the actual definition of rape, which arguably diminishes the seriousness of actual sexual assault.

"economically paralyzed" has to be the most ridiculous phrase i've heard in a long time.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone either, but i'm sure the guys that Ozzy "ripped-off" would never say that what happened to them was almost as bad as murder or rape or anything like that.

You are aware that rape has more then one definition?  Go check out a dictionary, or let me do that for you:

rape
noun
Definition of RAPE

1:  an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2:  unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
3:  an outrageous violation

Maybe Runicen was referring to #3? Just a thought.

Witchfinder wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about guys in their 20s who sign a bad contract and then get it together afterwards.  I'm talking about guys who still haven't gotten their due for crap they did 40 years ago or more.  Yeah, there's a chance it could be rectified, but I wouldn't be betting any cash on it.

And, if you really break it down, ever single crime you listed fits into a category pretty neatly with what I'm talking about: either taking or destroying that which is not yours.  Yeah, it's a matter of degrees, but ruining someone's career has to be pretty high on that list.  I mean, if we're going to bring rape and arson into the equation, it's like someone being in a position to continually rape someone or keep burning their house down.  It's not a big, "all over but the crying" kind of event; it's an ongoing harassment and not a minor one at that.  Hell, when compared to armed robbery, all it's missing is the gun and a bad part of town.  Robbing someone legally doesn't make it less horrible than some dude accosting you in a back alley with a stolen firearm.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is even a controversial idea.  I'm also not sure how I've insulted anyone who is paralyzed.  You can ECONOMICALLY paralyze someone and that may not be quite as literally final as the physical state, but it's not exactly pleasant either.  I wouldn't wish that on anybody.  

It's not controversial, it just completely asinine to me to say that ripping someone off is almost as bad as murder, i'm sure almost every person you ask would agree with that.

Also comparing ripping someone off to "raping someone over and over" is incredibly offensive to actual rape victims. I am so sick of people casually throwing the word "rape" around to refer to things that are not even close to the actual definition of rape, which arguably diminishes the seriousness of actual sexual assault.

"economically paralyzed" has to be the most ridiculous phrase i've heard in a long time.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone either, but i'm sure the guys that Ozzy "ripped-off" would never say that what happened to them was almost as bad as murder or rape or anything like that.

You are aware that rape has more then one definition?  Go check out a dictionary, or let me do that for you:

rape
noun
Definition of RAPE

1:  an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2:  unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
3:  an outrageous violation

Maybe Runicen was referring to #3?  Just a thought.

You forgot one

"noun
1.
a plant, Brassica napus, of the mustard family, whose leaves are used for food for hogs, sheep, etc., and whose seeds yield [url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape oil]rape oil[/url]."


maybe he meant that definition?


But as we are probably talking about the crime of rape, things get a bit more specific


"Rape in the United States is a form of sexual assault usually involving sexual penetration of a person's vagina, mouth, or anus without that person's consent. While definitions and terminology of rape vary by jurisdiction in the United States, the FBI revised its definition to eliminate a requirement that the crime involve an element of force."

Boris2008 wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Wow...  Ok, let me see where to start on answering that one.

Going off the threats to my (nonexistent) children - if one was killed I'd want the guy who did it drawn and quartered.  I think for the comparison to stick though, my second kid would need to be an inventor and a damn good one.  Now, if someone came along and pulled a Thomas Edison on him, robbed him of a lucrative patent/invention and profited off of it greatly while discrediting him (my kid here) so that their ability to work in the field and be taken seriously was crippled or rendered nonexistent?  Yeah, you've basically turned someone incredibly gifted and productive into someone who can only earn a subsistence living at a McDonalds.  I guess the only other thing I could compare it to is imagine being attacked and you die.  Now, imagine you were attacked and LIVED, but were paralyzed from the neck down.  Yeah, you can still operate, but based on what someone else did TO you, you're not even half of what you were before.  

This probably sounds like an extreme comparison, but consider that a lot of the musicians who get/got ripped off by people like Ozzy and his ilk in the business lost their most productive years in the industry to this bullshit.  It's not like they're going to write or play on a hit now - so that ship has sailed.  It's also a bit late for most of them to pick up a trade and get the cash rolling in that way.

So, ok, saying Ozzy is as bad as a mass murderer?  Not exactly what I was going for (besides, he didn't rip off THAT many people).  That said, I think it's a close second to screw somebody's career to advance your own.  That's the meat of my argument here.

And illegal download being compared to rape?  Jesus...  I have some apology cards to send out...

I certainly wouldn't call it a "close second" either, there are still far worse things like rape, arson, drunk-driving, hate crimes, assault, armed robbery, torture, etc.

Also IMO compared getting ripped off to being paralyzed is insulting to those who actually are paralysed, at least there is still a chance that a person who got ripped off can eventually become successful again, it's not like it's a complete impossibility, but a person who becomes paralyzed will NEVER be the same again as AFAIK there is no cure for it whatsoever.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about guys in their 20s who sign a bad contract and then get it together afterwards.  I'm talking about guys who still haven't gotten their due for crap they did 40 years ago or more.  Yeah, there's a chance it could be rectified, but I wouldn't be betting any cash on it.

And, if you really break it down, ever single crime you listed fits into a category pretty neatly with what I'm talking about: either taking or destroying that which is not yours.  Yeah, it's a matter of degrees, but ruining someone's career has to be pretty high on that list.  I mean, if we're going to bring rape and arson into the equation, it's like someone being in a position to continually rape someone or keep burning their house down.  It's not a big, "all over but the crying" kind of event; it's an ongoing harassment and not a minor one at that.  Hell, when compared to armed robbery, all it's missing is the gun and a bad part of town.  Robbing someone legally doesn't make it less horrible than some dude accosting you in a back alley with a stolen firearm.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is even a controversial idea.  I'm also not sure how I've insulted anyone who is paralyzed.  You can ECONOMICALLY paralyze someone and that may not be quite as literally final as the physical state, but it's not exactly pleasant either.  I wouldn't wish that on anybody.  

It's not controversial, it just completely asinine to me to say that ripping someone off is almost as bad as murder, i'm sure almost every person you ask would agree with that.

Also comparing ripping someone off to "raping someone over and over" is incredibly offensive to actual rape victims. I am so sick of people casually throwing the word "rape" around to refer to things that are not even close to the actual definition of rape, which arguably diminishes the seriousness of actual sexual assault.

"economically paralyzed" has to be the most ridiculous phrase i've heard in a long time.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone either, but i'm sure the guys that Ozzy "ripped-off" would never say that what happened to them was almost as bad as murder or rape or anything like that.

You are aware that rape has more then one definition?  Go check out a dictionary, or let me do that for you:

rape
noun
Definition of RAPE

1:  an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2:  unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent — compare sexual assault, statutory rape
3:  an outrageous violation

Maybe Runicen was referring to #3?  Just a thought.

You forgot one

"noun
1.
a plant, Brassica napus, of the mustard family, whose leaves are used for food for hogs, sheep, etc., and whose seeds yield [url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape oil]rape oil[/url]."


maybe he meant that definition?


But as we are probably talking about the crime of rape, things get a bit more specific


"Rape in the United States is a form of sexual assault usually involving sexual penetration of a person's vagina, mouth, or anus without that person's consent. While definitions and terminology of rape vary by jurisdiction in the United States, the FBI revised its definition to eliminate a requirement that the crime involve an element of force."

Clearly subsumed under definition 2 in my example.

My point is that we are talking about rape as a criminal act. Can you name one case where a person has been tried for rape under definitions 1 or 3? Nope because the law is very specific about what it considers rape even if a dictionary allows for other definitions.

I think turning a serious subject into a word game is a little flippant.

Boris2008 wrote:

My point is that we are talking about rape as a criminal act. Can you name one case where a person has been tried for rape under definitions 1 or 3? Nope because the law is very specific about what it considers rape even if a dictionary allows for other definitions.

I think turning a serious subject into a word game is a little flippant.

I am not aware that definitions 1 or 3 are crimes under the criminal codes that I have studied.

This is a serious subject? Comparing murder, rape and Ozzy? Since when?

I'm obviously talking about the crime of rape, and my point still stands that far too many people use that word casually(I.E. telling someone they got "raped" when they lose a game).

I think mentioning definitions one and three(which nobody really uses) is just a silly distraction.

So... let's say Runicen is doing his normal whatever office work, and somehow one day he gets screwed. He is ripped off. He doesn't get paid for his work. He is physically unharmed, yet, he feels like his hard work is wasted. He still possesses the ability to produce equal quality work, but got ripped off doing this one project.

That afternoon, his equally gifted twin brother takes a casual walk outside. This twin brother has never gotten ripped off like Runicen has. Then suddenly someone forcefully subdues him and penetrates his anus with a penis. Repeatedly. Once he is released he makes a phone call.

Runicen gets that call. "You got butt-raped? Dude, I got ripped off today. Lost a bunch of money I'll never see again. Stop complaining!"

"Oh sorry man. I know I got raped, but I still got paid this month. Shouldn't be complaining, I know. Sorry"

Vexer6 wrote:

I'm obviously talking about the crime of rape, and my point still stands that far too many people use that word casually(I.E. telling someone they got "raped" when they lose a game).

I think mentioning definitions one and three(which nobody really uses) is just a silly distraction.

This entire thread derailment is a silly distraction.

Lari wrote:

So... let's say Runicen is doing his normal whatever office work, and somehow one day he gets screwed. He is ripped off. He doesn't get paid for his work. He is physically unharmed, yet, he feels like his hard work is wasted. He still possesses the ability to produce equal quality work, but got ripped off doing this one project.

That afternoon, his equally gifted twin brother takes a casual walk outside. This twin brother has never gotten ripped off like Runicen has. Then suddenly someone forcefully subdues him and penetrates his anus with a penis. Repeatedly. Once he is released he makes a phone call.

Runicen gets that call. "You got butt-raped? Dude, I got ripped off today. Lost a bunch of money I'll never see again. Stop complaining!"

"Oh sorry man. I know I got raped, but I still got paid this month. Shouldn't be complaining, I know. Sorry"

Were Ozzy and Sharon involved in some way? That's the real question.

This thread is as bad as genocide.

Boris2008 wrote:

This thread is as bad as genocide.

Preach it, brother!

And this has come up a number of times, so I'm going to clarify again on this point: I'm not talking about someone who had a bad week, month, year, or whatever. I'm talking about someone who, in the musical world, got the Nikola Tesla treatment: i.e. some asshole came along and effectively stole their life's work using the preponderance of legal FORCE and, in the process, also sought to rub out the musician's career credibility. All of this, ongoing for a long enough span of time that you've basically now got a musician well past their "sell by" date - i.e. they are unable to make up the difference. That is economic paralysis - someone preventing you from improving your station using the tools at your disposal. And yes, I think that's pretty $#@%ing horrid. You can get pedantic about the comparison to rape. The comparison, incidentally, I only made because Vexxer went down the "how can you say that's bad when you compare it to rape, arson, etc...?" Ok, so I went down that road, but it wasn't one I started.

Again, I don't understand how or why someone would want to defend this practice by saying "Oh, that isn't so bad." The goal isn't to say, "it should be punished worse than murder," and that kind of topic is WAY beyond even this thread derailment because there are LOTS of crimes that go un- or under-punished and LOTS of crimes that likewise get the kind of crap war criminals don't have to worry about. So, that out of the way - YES - this is a horrible practice, one which has been practiced for AGES and is unlikely to go away anytime soon, but getting back to the original point, I don't think it's beyond the pale to go, "You're a good musician, but you've made a living by $#@%ing other musicians without their consent (see? I can avoid using the word) and gotten exceedingly wealthy in the process. I'm not giving you any more money because that's disgusting."

And one final point on the pedantics of this: can we PLEASE just agree to a universal ban on "using the word in this context is an insult to anyone who has actually been..." please? Seriously, as a tool for discussion, let alone debate, that one always pisses me off. If we had a rape survivor, male or female on the board who said, "You know, I've been there and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't use that word in this context because I don't think it fits," I'd be completely on board, but when someone is just arguing hypotheticals, it becomes so sanctimonious I start to barf the book of Revelations and those papercuts are a bitch!

Dude, I'm not arguing hypotheticals. I worked for five years as an addictions therapist and worked with dozens of survivors of rape and sexual abuse (both female and male) and have seen the utter devastation that it causes to the human spirit and that's the reason that i get so antsy when it gets compared to something way down the totem pole of misery (in my honest estimation) 

Not trying to be sanctimonious dude, I just don't think someone denying you the right to own a Ferrari really compares (let's be honest, no-one that Ozzy ripped off starved to death did they?)

So no, I really won't stop saying that it's insulting to the survivors of rape to misuse the word (in it's most popular context) but not because I'm trying to win a silly argument on a message forum or because I'm channeling my inner Bono, but because that is what i wholeheartedly believe to be true.

I will now stop being serious and continue my usual service of talking trash and arseing about on this forum 

I can't believe I just read a multiple-page discussion on whether or not someone being murdered is worse than Ozzy ripping off musicians he worked with. And somehow that got turned into Ozzy raping the musicians he worked with.

Life is better than money. And not getting money you deserve is most definitely not the same as being raped. I would generally listen to someone else's argument/side in a discussion, but I wouldn't even entertain it in this instance. I pretty much view the above statement as indisputable fact.

I'm not trying to trash talk on people who actually get raped and I do sincerely apologize if it came off that I was. Rape is a horrific thing and it's not something anyone should have to go through. But, I wasn't even the one who brought rape up. This idea of, "Well, it could have been worse and wasn't even really that bad. It wasn't rape, arson, murder, etc.," got floated and I wasn't about to let that one roll by unchallenged. The "It could be worse. Their nose could be gushing blood!" argument is so flimsy that I don't see how it overturns, "Wow, this was a $#@$ thing to do and isn't ok."

How does the idea of a totem pole of misery even enter into the equation? We're not talking about someone getting their order at Starbucks wrong. This is about potentially millions in lost revenues, lost credibility, etc. And yeah, Ozzy may be small potatoes in the industry, but there are scads of casualties of "the industry" who got taken far worse and ended up impoverished, etc. for their trouble (all while making LOTS of people very wealthy in the process).

If we were talking about Wal-Mart, I suspect I'd have a lot more support in this argument, but because it's a musician and in the case of the specific example I went off with, one with a pretty solid legacy and fanbase, the rationalizations come out. All I'm arguing is that it's wrong regardless of degree, and it not being literal rape or murder doesn't make it less wrong or less horrific. Being bitten by a poisonous snake isn't invalidated as a bad thing or a life-threatening thing because you weren't bitten by the MOST POISONOUS snake.

And yes, life is better than money, but absent money, life becomes a hell of a lot harder. Speaking as someone who has been homeless before, trust me, I know about that in a very intimate way. Crawling back from being in a bad way financially is possible, but Christ, is it ever difficult and I didn't have it nearly as bad as many.

I think this is a great thread!



Now someone start a poll: which one is worse - Ozzy Osbourne or rape?

Lari wrote:

I think this is a great thread!



Now someone start a poll: which one is worse - Ozzy Osbourne or rape?

I'm totally going to get myself in trouble with this one, but broaden the poll: "The #1 Album You Think is Worse Than Rape."

I have a feeling that would get some interesting replies. My money's on Lulu topping that poll...

how does one objectively criticize music? I would like to know the qualifications that would allow someone to do this.

exact33 wrote:

how does one objectively criticize music? I would like to know the qualifications that would allow someone to do this.

I'm told that you must first be certified as tr00 or, at the very least, have an Associates' Degree in cvlt. If you are tr00 cvlt, you will be refused for overqualification.