Objectively Criticizing Music

When criticizing music, there's a perspective that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and that's when someone assumes that if a musician in a band or the whole people involved are mean-spirited jerks, then their music therefore sucks. While there are certainly examples of pretentious musicians in metal that fit both attributes, don't assume that it applies to just about every other bad apple out there. Perhaps a person has beliefs that you simply disagree with, but that in no way makes their music worthless.

So what that you're a religious person and are put off by Bathory's lyrics? Is the music otherwise any good? Don't jump straight to conclusions.

How about that Varg Vikernes? He's surely a piece of shit murderer and a racist asshole, but if you dig his work in Burzum, then respect him only as a musician. I know that sounds impossible to do, but you shouldn't resort to bias.

Just separate the artist from the art. Shitty people can make good music, just as good people can make shitty music. Just because someone plays deathcore or any other style of music that you dislike doesn't mean that you can't still like or respect the person.

Focus on a band's musical strengths and weaknesses. Are the vocals your cup of tea? Do you like most of the riffs? How about the drumming? Do all these factors blend well with each other? If so, then the band doesn't suck. Say anything you want about the people, but don't use that excuse against their music, as well.

I feel like I just opened and read the world's largest fortune cookie

I know that sounds impossible to do, but you shouldn't resort to bias. wrote:

Read your post again and get back to me

Thanks for the useful reply. How about actually adding to the discussion?

Painkiller wrote:

Thanks for the useful reply. How about actually adding to the discussion?

The quote from your post in my reply was pretty darn funny. Telling others how do to things is one of the most basic forms of personal bias there is.

Maybe you can find a dictionary on YouTube ?

You pretty much shot down an attempt at having an interesting thread. Have a nice day.

Painkiller wrote:

You pretty much shot down an attempt at having an interesting thread. Have a nice day.

I am sorry that you think telling grown adults how to do stuff is interesting. You must have a pretty thick neck to hold that big giant head of yours above your shoulders.

If you think that I'm deliberately trying to change anyone's perspective, then you're pretty stupid. I wrote my own thoughts on how I'd approach forming an opinion that isn't black or white.

It's good to see that the point of this thread flew right through your head. Had this been posted by someone else, you wouldn't have bothered to make a shitty reply.

Painkiller wrote:

If you think that I'm deliberately trying to change anyone's perspective, then you're pretty stupid. I wrote my own thoughts on how I'd approach forming an opinion that isn't black or white.

Guess I'm stupid....most of your paragraph sounded like instructions to me. Maybe it was all the do's & don'ts, should & Should not's and those pesky can & can not's ?

James B. wrote:

Guess I'm stupid....most of your paragraph sounded like instructions to me. Maybe it was all the do's & don'ts, should & Should not's and those pesky can & can not's ?

I don't see it like that. Just general advice that I'm trying to offer, which anyone else is free to add to. The point is to judge a band or album by resorting to more objectivity than subjectivity.

For example, I think Ghost B.C. is a really boring band. That's subjective. On the other hand, I can acknowledge that what they play is appropriate for their style. They know how to play their instruments and can write their own songs. That's objective.

See the difference? Not every album that someone likes or dislikes should be held way up or down. This is a common problem that I see everywhere whenever a review pops up. I know that I've made the same mistakes, but I'm finding that approaching things more objectively helps convince the reader whether or not the album will be to their liking, and NOT just reading for the sake of knowing what I think of the album.

I prefer to just say something sucks or I dig it. I have heard people's opinions on everything for years and they have heard mine. My input isn't going to change their opinion and visa/versa regardless if either of ours is subjective or objective. Anymore, it seems most are merely concerned with impressing others with their knowledge, wisdom and that so called unique perspective. When for the most part it's just something they've read and never lived it. Pretty much self indulgent B/S if you as me. There are others who feel like me on the matter, others don't. No big deal. I commend your effort and understand it, but honestly feel it's a waste of time to push an objective format (content of review) on such a subjective matter (what one thinks of what is being reviewed) Especially when you don't really know what anybody reading the review thinks about anything. Basing one's objectivity on mere assumption is a pretty big stretch and usually leaves those reading the review with the impression that one might think way too much of themselves.

James B. wrote:

I prefer to just say something sucks or I dig it. I have heard people's opinions on everything for years and they have heard mine. My input isn't going to change their opinion and visa/versa regardless if either of ours is subjective or objective. Anymore, it seems most are merely concerned with impressing others with their knowledge, wisdom and that so called unique perspective. When for the most part it's just something they've read and never lived it. Pretty much self indulgent B/S if you as me. There are others who feel like me on the matter, others don't. No big deal. I commend your effort and understand it, but honestly feel it's a waste of time to push an objective format (content of review) on such a subjective matter (what one thinks of what is being reviewed) Especially when you don't really know what anybody reading the review thinks about anything. Basing one's objectivity on mere assumption is a pretty big stretch and usually leaves those reading the review with the impression that one might think way too much of themselves.

I agree that reviews are bound to be subjective, but what if you wanted to help influence someone's decision to check out the album that you're reviewing? You can't change anyone else for how they think, which I'd agree is a universal fact. I can understand having been into the music for years, but there's a lot more to it than just that. I met someone almost twice my own age at a gig last year. We had a nice discussion about bands of the old times. I brought up plenty of bands from his era that he admitted to not knowing much about. I think knowledge is a very important weapon to possess in metal, regardless of how old you are. You could claim to have been into metal for over three decades, but you'd probably have spent all that time merely being stuck on Mercyful Fate or Metallica.

Anyway, I think a good review explores both objective and subjective standpoints. You acknowledge that a band played things right, but how it sounds to you is another matter. You'll give your reasons for not liking the vocals or riffs (if there are any), but it's not like you're reviewing Thrash Queen or Killer Fox. Those bands played the metal style that we're both into, but they objectively screwed it all up by weak musicianship and even weaker songwriting. Using the nastiest words that you can find to slag an album that's simply not your cup of tea is different.

Painkiller wrote:

If you think that I'm deliberately trying to change anyone's perspective, then you're pretty stupid. I wrote my own thoughts on how I'd approach forming an opinion that isn't black or white.

It's good to see that the point of this thread flew right through your head. Had this been posted by someone else, you wouldn't have bothered to make a shitty reply.

Dude, it is an interesting subject and one that I have really been struggling with lately but read your original post again from the perspective of someone who doesn't really know you and has been listening to music for a long time and decide whether it sounds pompous and preachy. You put yourself up on a pedestal so high that James or someone else was bound to bump you off of it just for the amusement of the rest of us.

Going back to the original subject matter, I like black metal and occult rock and that scene has assholes galore who spout all kinds of destructive racist, violent, homophobic, satanic vomit in their songs and interviews and I'd always considered it fairly harmless bullshit because I dig the music and to some extent the imagery, but recent experiences of that scene from a close family member has shown me that people get waay into all of that bullshit and the reality of that lifestyle is something that I wan't absolutely no association with whatsoever. I still own records by Varg Vikernes and Niklas Kvarforth and others because I do think that they are creative people, but respect them in any way? Nope! I suppose that the only one that I really couldn't listen to is Lost Prophets so it is fortunate that they suck.

But regular asshole like Ozzy, Vest, DuBrow, Lawless & Gene? Nah, couldn't care less. I own records by all of them and them being rock & Roll assholes won't change that.

There's so many bands. I don't know why I should listen or even buy music from artists I don't like because of whatever reason. I am the consumer, I am allowed to be fickle.

The thought of "missing out on stuff because of bias" isn't relevant, because to begin with it's not possible to get into every band in the world. I don't even have time to listen to all my CDs.

I think the OP should be obvious to pretty much anybody.

Some folks view music only as "entertainment" though and part of the entertainment for them is getting involved in the TMZ side of the performer's lives.

James B. wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

If you think that I'm deliberately trying to change anyone's perspective, then you're pretty stupid. I wrote my own thoughts on how I'd approach forming an opinion that isn't black or white.

Guess I'm stupid....most of your paragraph sounded like instructions to me. Maybe it was all the do's & don'ts, should & Should not's and those pesky can & can not's ?

*nots

Painkiller wrote:

When criticizing music, there's a perspective that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and that's when someone assumes that if a musician in a band or the whole people involved are mean-spirited jerks, then their music therefore sucks. While there are certainly examples of pretentious musicians in metal that fit both attributes, don't assume that it applies to just about every other bad apple out there. Perhaps a person has beliefs that you simply disagree with, but that in no way makes their music worthless.

So what that you're a religious person and are put off by Bathory's lyrics? Is the music otherwise any good? Don't jump straight to conclusions.

How about that Varg Vikernes? He's surely a piece of shit murderer and a racist asshole, but if you dig his work in Burzum, then respect him only as a musician. I know that sounds impossible to do, but you shouldn't resort to bias.

Just separate the artist from the art. Shitty people can make good music, just as good people can make shitty music. Just because someone plays deathcore or any other style of music that you dislike doesn't mean that you can't still like or respect the person.

Focus on a band's musical strengths and weaknesses. Are the vocals your cup of tea? Do you like most of the riffs? How about the drumming? Do all these factors blend well with each other? If so, then the band doesn't suck. Say anything you want about the people, but don't use that excuse against their music, as well.

Lyrics are an integral part of a song and therefore, may be criticized. If I don't like the lyrical content, why wouldn't I criticize that in a review? Also, there's no such thing as an objective review of music. All musical taste is 100% subjective. I think you have confused objectivity with separating art from the artist.

I think one can objectively look at artist one does not care for, for example I do not like the Eagles, but I can acknowledge they are truly talented musicians. But I would not review their albums, because I already have a built in dislike for their music. It would be unfair to the band and their fans if I were spout off my view of their music.

As far as racist lyrics, as a minority, I am sorry I can't view that objectively. I can overlook the arist being an asshole, prima donna, all around nasty sort, but racism is where I draw the line.

The title of this thread is an oxymoron. By definition any kind of critique is subjective and any reviewer always brings their own biases (both conscious and unconscious) to any music they review.

Eyesore wrote:

James B. wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

If you think that I'm deliberately trying to change anyone's perspective, then you're pretty stupid. I wrote my own thoughts on how I'd approach forming an opinion that isn't black or white.

Guess I'm stupid....most of your paragraph sounded like instructions to me. Maybe it was all the do's & don'ts, should & Should not's and those pesky can & can not's ?

*nots

Thanks Ken

I do value everyone's opinions about bands -
these bands are putting out books - to judge things -
KISS comes to mind - what personalities ! Axl - lol -
All these bands get in trouble in one way or another -
People made fun of Phil Rudd - this and that - about him -
knowing a band's history is just as entertaining - sometimes -
as their musical releases - Ozzy and all his axe-men -
youtube - forget it - everythings filmed and held up to public ridicule -
I never cared for Hetfield's style - but the music is undeniable.

I prefer not to know about the behind-the-scenes inter-workings of bands. I have signed copies of Paul Stanley's and Bob Mould's autobiographies, but I doubt I will ever read them. I'd rather not know about the in-fighting or a musician I admire being a jerk. I just enjoy the music and, if I'm really interested, I'll learn the names of the band members and that's about it.

80s Metal Lady wrote:

I prefer not to know about the behind-the-scenes inter-workings of bands. I have signed copies of Paul Stanley's and Bob Mould's autobiographies, but I doubt I will ever read them. I'd rather not know about the in-fighting or a musician I admire being a jerk. I just enjoy the music and, if I'm really interested, I'll learn the names of the band members and that's about it.

I'm pretty much the same way. I'd rather enjoy someone's music without the knowledge they are a total ass clown. Ignorance is bliss!

There are certain instances where it's impossible to separate someone's personality from the music, for example if the music is an extension of their personality such as in the case of Neo-Nazi bands like Skullhead and Honor, which preach things like racism, that's one thing that is impossible for me to overlook.

For other guys who are simply assholes like Nugent and Mustaine, I just listen to their music and try to ignore all the bullshit that comes out of their mouths whenever they're not singing.

Yeah, I can accept musicians being jerks (to a point) or believing or not believing the same stuff I do. But when bands/artists are racists or homophobes, I'm out--especially if that is what their lyrics are about, but even if they don't sing about, if I know it's the case, I have no use for that artist. There are tons of good people making music...I'd rather support them.

The last time this topic came up I said something along these lines:

By all accounts, Gene Simmons is a greedy, egocentric douche, Ace Frehley is an unreliable drunk a**hole and Peter Criss is a self pitying man child, but I still like KISS.

Dave Mustaine and Jon Schaffer are unhinged conspiracy freaks but I still like Megadeth and Iced Earth.

Ice-T is a loudmouth but I still listen to Body Count from time to time.

I've never hit a woman or mistreated one in any way but my inner 14 year old still thinks the Mentors are funny as hell.

I'm not exactly Charlie Church but I listen to lotsa Christian metal bands. By the same token, I don't worship Satan, but I dig Mercyful Fate, Venom, etc., etc.

...and those are just a few examples. Basically if I dumped every CD from my collection by an artist I didn't agree with, I'd have a very small collection.

Like many here, though, I draw the line at racist stuff. For example, a couple of years ago someone posted a YouTube video here by a white supremacist power metal band called BattleCry. They could play well enough I suppose, but even if they were the most amazing musicians ever to walk the earth, I wouldn't support them due to their outlook. I just can't see myself ever saying "Well, y'know, they're Nazis but dude, that guitarist shreds."