QUEENSRYCHE

Man, "Screaming in Digital" is one of my all-time favs.

Eyesore wrote:

Man, "Screaming in Digital" is one of my all-time favs.

Not one of my all time favs, but it is a fantastic song! I can't imagine ever skipping it on the disc!

And here is why people dislike Tate:

Quote :

"I didn't see it coming. I didn't even think it was possible," Tate said. "Why would you fire the main writer? Why would you do that — and the person who is the face of the band and is the identifying key figure in the success of the group?"

Screw that guy!

Eyesore wrote:

And here is why people dislike Tate:

Quote :

"I didn't see it coming. I didn't even think it was possible," Tate said. "Why would you fire the main writer? Why would you do that — and the person who is the face of the band and is the identifying key figure in the success of the group?"

Screw that guy!

???

Well, he's right. Back in the 80s people were going nuts over his voice and imitating it a lot. Moreso than DeGarmo's guitar playing or anyone else in the band's playing, not to say they were bad at all.

But regardless, my point before wasn't "I don't see why anyone thinks Geoff Tate is a jerk". It was: who cares if he is?

I have railed against the "lead singer is the band" syndrome around here and it seems that some of the same folks who fall into that line of thinking would also criticize Tate for acknowledging that perception of the public.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

And here is why people dislike Tate:

Quote :

"I didn't see it coming. I didn't even think it was possible," Tate said. "Why would you fire the main writer? Why would you do that — and the person who is the face of the band and is the identifying key figure in the success of the group?"

Screw that guy!

???

Well, he's right.  Back in the 80s people were going nuts over his voice and imitating it a lot.  Moreso than DeGarmo's guitar playing or anyone else in the band's playing, not to say they were bad at all.

But regardless, my point before wasn't "I don't see why anyone thinks Geoff Tate is a jerk".  It was: who cares if he is?

I have railed against the "lead singer is the band" syndrome around here and it seems that some of the same folks who fall into that line of thinking would also criticize Tate for acknowledging that perception of the public.

He's not right, though. He's not the main writer, and he never has been. Nor do I think he is the "identifying key figure in the success of the band." If that were the case, why has everything since DeGarmo left flopped? He was certainly the face of the band, and the voice, which is fairly recognizable, but everything else he said is egomaniacal bullshit.

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He's not the main writer, and he never has been.

Fair enough. But neither are the 3 guys that are left in there now from the old days. Their main writer is gone.

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Nor do I think he is the "identifying key figure in the success of the band."

He certainly was .... when the band was actually successful.

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If that were the case, why has everything since DeGarmo left flopped?

Because times have been tough for metal bands? That's the main reason. They were flopping when the original line-up was still intact.

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He was certainly the face of the band, and the voice, which is fairly recognizable, but everything else he said is egomaniacal bullshit.

I think it's pretty egomaniacal for the remaining 3 to keep the name and continue to use it when both their influential lead singer and main songwriter are gone. Has any other metal band done this before QR?

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys. They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

GT may not have been the main songwriter during DeGarmo's tenure, but he certainly was once DeGarmo left...his name was on every track from Q2K and beyond, was it not?

...yes it goes on and one my friend....

Temple of Blood wrote:

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys.  They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

I wonder why they didn't do that? It's a cool name. I mean, I'm sure it was financial reasons, but still. QR fans would have known who they were. They could have had their own identity and done what they wanted.

ultmetal wrote:

...yes it goes on and one my friend....

Temple of Blood wrote:

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys.  They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

I wonder why they didn't do that? It's a cool name. I mean, I'm sure it was financial reasons, but still. QR fans would have known who they were. They could have had their own identity and done what they wanted.

It's money of course. Mainstream rock/metal fans wouldn't know who Rising West was and no 50 year old rock veterans want to start over.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it's pretty egomaniacal for the remaining 3 to keep the name and continue to use it when both their influential lead singer and main songwriter are gone.  Has any other metal band done this before QR?

For what it's worth (and they're also not metal), Spock's Beard carried on after Neal Morse left. The circumstances were different as he chose to go and wasn't kicked out, but he was the singer and main songwriter - it was only a handful of songs for which he didn't receive the sole writing credit.

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

...yes it goes on and one my friend....

Temple of Blood wrote:

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys.  They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

I wonder why they didn't do that? It's a cool name. I mean, I'm sure it was financial reasons, but still. QR fans would have known who they were. They could have had their own identity and done what they wanted.

It's money of course.  Mainstream rock/metal fans wouldn't know who Rising West was and no 50 year old rock veterans want to start over.

That and quite possibly to prevent Tate from using the Queensryche name. If they'd gone out as Rising West (or anything else) then it may have strengthened his claim.

Citanul wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

...yes it goes on and one my friend....

Temple of Blood wrote:

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys.  They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

I wonder why they didn't do that? It's a cool name. I mean, I'm sure it was financial reasons, but still. QR fans would have known who they were. They could have had their own identity and done what they wanted.

It's money of course.  Mainstream rock/metal fans wouldn't know who Rising West was and no 50 year old rock veterans want to start over.

That and quite possibly to prevent Tate from using the Queensryche name.  If they'd gone out as Rising West (or anything else) then it may have strengthened his claim.

Because they owned 75% of Queensryche, The Vest 25%... it's a corporation, that's the way it works....

Eyesore wrote:

And here is why people dislike Tate:

Quote :

"I didn't see it coming. I didn't even think it was possible," Tate said. "Why would you fire the main writer? Why would you do that — and the person who is the face of the band and is the identifying key figure in the success of the group?"

Screw that guy!

Agree!!!

To add on to my last post, since they are a corporation they can legally fire The Geoff as singer of the band, just like a board of directors can fire a CEO of a company. If the CEO is an owner and they don't want him/her to own any piece of it, they have to negotiate a settlement.

And he absolutely was NOT the main writer. His names on the song as a writer? Yes, on a lot of them post-DeGarmo... But I'll bet anyone 10 bucks that it's in the exact same way the Brittney Spears is listed as a "writer" on her albums... AKA someone else brought her the songs (i.e. Jason Slater to Tate or Bryan Adams with "War Machine" to Gene Simmons"), she added something (even if it was just a lyric or two like the Simmons example), songwriter (i.e. Jason Slater) is not named Desmond Child or Diane Warren and has no choice but to allow the "co-writer" credit.

Citanul wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it's pretty egomaniacal for the remaining 3 to keep the name and continue to use it when both their influential lead singer and main songwriter are gone.  Has any other metal band done this before QR?

For what it's worth (and they're also not metal), Spock's Beard carried on after Neal Morse left.  The circumstances were different as he chose to go and wasn't kicked out, but he was the singer and main songwriter - it was only a handful of songs for which he didn't receive the sole writing credit.

Yeah, I knew about that but don't follow them closely so don't know how that worked out.

The closest in metal I can think of is HELLOWEEN and frankly UNISONIC sounds a whole lot better to me these days and closer to the spirit of old HELLOWEEN.

thejokeriv wrote:

And he absolutely was NOT the main writer. His names on the song as a writer? Yes, on a lot of them post-DeGarmo... But I'll bet anyone 10 bucks that it's in the exact same way the Brittney Spears is listed as a "writer" on her albums... AKA someone else brought her the songs (i.e. Jason Slater to Tate or Bryan Adams with "War Machine" to Gene Simmons"), she added something (even if it was just a lyric or two like the Simmons example), songwriter (i.e. Jason Slater) is not named Desmond Child or Diane Warren and has no choice but to allow the "co-writer" credit.

Well duh...I'm just saying that, from his view, when it was HE who was controlling the writing, who he was writing with, the song ideas, album concepts, etc, and not allowing the other members any room for contribution, he WAS the "Cheif"...in his mind, it was "his" band, and since he had HIS name on all the writing credits, and no other actual Queensryche member did, then he could paint himself as the "main songwriter"...especially w/ DeGarmo out of the picture.

What do you guys think of Geoff's two solo albums (the 2002 self-titled, Kings & Thieves from 2012)?

From what I've heard, Tate's cleans still sound really good live even though he has to take some of the high notes down (most notably on "Eyes of a Stranger").

Temple of Blood wrote:

Quote :

He's not the main writer, and he never has been.

Fair enough.  But neither are the 3 guys that are left in there now from the old days.  Their main writer is gone.

Quote :

Nor do I think he is the "identifying key figure in the success of the band."

He certainly was .... when the band was actually successful.

Quote :

If that were the case, why has everything since DeGarmo left flopped?

Because times have been tough for metal bands?  That's the main reason.  They were flopping when the original line-up was still intact.  

Quote :

He was certainly the face of the band, and the voice, which is fairly recognizable, but everything else he said is egomaniacal bullshit.

I think it's pretty egomaniacal for the remaining 3 to keep the name and continue to use it when both their influential lead singer and main songwriter are gone.  Has any other metal band done this before QR?

It makes more sense for GT to use the name than those guys.  They should've (if we're looking at fairness, not marketability) just used the name Rising West.

I'm not sure why a lyricist has more claim to a band name/corporation than three other guys who started the band. Geoff being credited on most songs is irrelevant when his contribution to the song was likely the smallest.

And Wilton contributed quite a lot to Ryche's catalog. He's credited on nearly as many songs as Tate and DeGarmo.

Tate must not have many shows left on his "Farewell Tour" under the Queensryche name. I just noticed tonight that the name on his band's Facebook page is now changed to "Operation Mindcrime."

Fat Freddy wrote:

Tate must not have many shows left on his "Farewell Tour" under the Queensryche name. I just noticed tonight that the name on his band's Facebook page is now changed to "Operation Mindcrime."

I just saw that. I'm actually surprised the other guys didn't get that page in the deal. It has nearly 700,000 likes! So now Operation: Mindcrime has all those likes. Shame the other guys overlooked that in the lawsuit. Social media is a big deal these days.

Eyesore wrote:

Fat Freddy wrote:

Tate must not have many shows left on his "Farewell Tour" under the Queensryche name. I just noticed tonight that the name on his band's Facebook page is now changed to "Operation Mindcrime."

I just saw that. I'm actually surprised the other guys didn't get that page in the deal. It has nearly 700,000 likes! So now Operation: Mindcrime has all those likes. Shame the other guys overlooked that in the lawsuit. Social media is a big deal these days.

Likes can be bought fairly easily these days so maybe they realise that it has become a bit meaningless.

Eyesore wrote:

And here is why people dislike Tate:

Quote :

"I didn't see it coming. I didn't even think it was possible," Tate said. "Why would you fire the main writer? Why would you do that — and the person who is the face of the band and is the identifying key figure in the success of the group?"

Screw that guy!

I would take anything that Geoff Taint says with a grain of salt.

Eyesore wrote:

And Wilton contributed quite a lot to Ryche's catalog. He's credited on nearly as many songs as Tate and DeGarmo.

I know I made a post at some point detailing the band members' contributions, but I can't seem to find it.

So anyway, here's a quick count of the writing credits from the EP to HITNF.

Total songs: 76
DeGarmo: 58
Tate: 49
Wilton: 29

Wilton's writing really dropped off after Empire as he only wrote two songs on Promised Land and one on HITNF. Up to and including Empire, the breakdown looks like this.

Total songs: 51
DeGarmo: 36
Tate: 35
Wilton: 26

Temple of Blood wrote:

Citanul wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it's pretty egomaniacal for the remaining 3 to keep the name and continue to use it when both their influential lead singer and main songwriter are gone.  Has any other metal band done this before QR?

For what it's worth (and they're also not metal), Spock's Beard carried on after Neal Morse left.  The circumstances were different as he chose to go and wasn't kicked out, but he was the singer and main songwriter - it was only a handful of songs for which he didn't receive the sole writing credit.

Yeah, I knew about that but don't follow them closely so don't know how that worked out.

The closest in metal I can think of is HELLOWEEN and frankly UNISONIC sounds a whole lot better to me these days and closer to the spirit of old HELLOWEEN.

Rhapsody of Fire perhaps? Luca Turilli left to form Luca Turilli's Rhapsody and the band has carried on without him. Or for another non-metal example, it happened twice to Pink Floyd.

But it's tough to find similar examples, metal or otherwise, as it tends to be the main songwriter choosing to leave, rather than being kicked out as in Tate's case. So Queensryche's situation is either unique or pretty close to being so.

I do actually think that Tate had quite a good case for the name in terms of contributions to the band, but he also agreed to the arrangement that essentially turned the band's name into a piece of property of which he was only a part owner. So that trumps everything else, regardless of how fair it may or may not be.

glassprison wrote:

What do you guys think of Geoff's two solo albums (the 2002 self-titled, Kings & Thieves from 2012)?

I know the first solo album gets a lot of hate. My only real criticism of it is that only a few of the songs really allow him to stretch out vocally and that seems a wasted opportunity. It didn't need to sound like The Warning, but a little bit more fire in the vocal melodies would have brought it up a few pegs.

It's still a fun listen and one I really should make a point to dig out this weekend. The variation in styles is phenomenal. I still really like "This Moment."

As for K&T...