QUEENSRYCHE

Mindcrime is a brilliant album. Even the short, interlude-like tracks are good. And hell, the concept is excellent, too. How long did the Who Killed Mary? mystery last? Twenty years or so? Until Geoff sharted out the hackneyed sequel?

Eyesore wrote:

Mindcrime is a brilliant album. Even the short, interlude-like tracks are good. And hell, the concept is excellent, too. How long did the Who Killed Mary? mystery last? Twenty years or so? Until Geoff sharted out the hackneyed sequel?

Maybe I'm lazy, but I always assumed from every other cue in the album that it was a suicide. Like... There was zero mystery to me. I thought it was explicitly out and out stated when you listen to her lines at the end of Suite Sister Mary.

So... Then Geoff comes out with promo interviews for OM:2 and I just about crapped bricks because I'm like, "You wrote the damn thing and you think this is a mystery? Seemed pretty well buttoned up!"   

Runicen wrote:

Maybe I'm lazy, but I always assumed from every other cue in the album that it was a suicide.  Like...  There was zero mystery to me.  I thought it was explicitly out and out stated when you listen to her lines at the end of Suite Sister Mary.

There was also this additional text that was in the booklet for Operation: Livecrime.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010224054709/http://www.queensryche.com/discography/operation_mindcrime/libretto.html

The Needle Lies section pretty much points to Mary having killed herself.

Quote :

After Nikki leaves, Mary is plagued by the vision of Nikki turning into Father William. As they made love on the altar, the memories came flooding back. Years filled with men who has used her, degraded and beaten her, and driven their hatred and coldness into her heart. Once, she thought Nikki was her hope. But now he seemed like all the rest. She hated him. She hated men. She hated life. "Anybody home?" Unable to shake his addiction, and feeling beaten in his confrontation with Dr. X, Nikki returns. "Mary?" He finds her dead in her room.

Mindcrime is a fantastic album. Can't go wrong with EP though Promised Land... then hit or miss until the S/T from last year.

The Geoff was trying to see his own BS with Mindcrime 2.... the revealed that it was suicide in the livecrime booklet... and when they played the whole album live on the Empire tour, they kept flashing suicide on the screens after Mary's death. Pretty obvious, but Vest was trying to sell a sequel.....

Citanul wrote:

Runicen wrote:

Maybe I'm lazy, but I always assumed from every other cue in the album that it was a suicide.  Like...  There was zero mystery to me.  I thought it was explicitly out and out stated when you listen to her lines at the end of Suite Sister Mary.

There was also this additional text that was in the booklet for Operation: Livecrime.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010224054709/http://www.queensryche.com/discography/operation_mindcrime/libretto.html

The Needle Lies section pretty much points to Mary having killed herself.

Quote :

After Nikki leaves, Mary is plagued by the vision of Nikki turning into Father William. As they made love on the altar, the memories came flooding back. Years filled with men who has used her, degraded and beaten her, and driven their hatred and coldness into her heart. Once, she thought Nikki was her hope. But now he seemed like all the rest. She hated him. She hated men. She hated life. "Anybody home?" Unable to shake his addiction, and feeling beaten in his confrontation with Dr. X, Nikki returns. "Mary?" He finds her dead in her room.

And in, I think, the alternate video for "I Don't Believe In Love," the word "suicide" flashes on the screen at the end. You barely see it. I remember having to use the slow-motion feature on my old VHS to see it.

So yeah, things pointed toward suicide, but it was never laid out crystal clear. One could assume she was certainly suicidal, which would explain the flashing of the word "suicide" and other things, but it never was that cut and dried. "Who Killed Mary?" was a question that lingered for decades, and for good reason. It was great, concept-album storytelling.

Ok, I'll concede that the question COULD be interpreted as an open one, but to say it was a key mystery of the story doesn't quite do it for me. I mean, the question of how much of what happened was in Nikki's head looms much larger and the sequel particularly kind of annoyed because it made everything "face value" in the first album. Some of its ambiguity re: drug haze, memory, etc. made it the cool story that it was.

This is more me venting my spleen at the sequel, but I would have much rather had an exploration of a cracked drug addict/murderer's psyche (which we got a bit of) rather than a hackneyed "Who killed my ex? I need ta get him!" kind of arc. Mary was a secondary character at best in a story that was really about Nikki and Dr. X.

I mean, they give her two songs - the first setting up, "Here's this tragic secondary character and how she got here," the second going into, "Tragic character getting more tragic and probably going to die," and then an interlude for "Tragic character = dead."

Even the "relationship" there is kind of bizarre because, when she does die, Nikki doesn't sound like he misses HER, but that he's tired of being alive and wants to die too. This isn't Romeo & Juliet material...

Maybe I just missed the point of that duo altogether, but it was not a weight-bearing wall in the concept to my mind.

Vexer6 wrote:

Mindcrime is good, though I personally prefer Empire.

I like Empire too. It is very good but it has a much different feel to it than Mindcrime.

What I loved about original-era Queensryche was that each album had distinct personalities about them....all different, yet all Queensryche.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

What I loved about original-era Queensryche was that each album had distinct personalities about them....all different, yet all Queensryche.

I'll second this. There's almost a QR album from that era for any mood you could be in. Feeling alienated and distant? Promised Land or Rage for Order. Feeling politically aware and torqued off? Mindcrime or Empire. Feel like banging your head? EP or Warning. Feeling melancholy? I Will Remember on an endless loop.

Hey Eyesore, here that guy's story on why he thinks he was the catalyst for the QR firing of Tate.

http://www.vindication156.net/index.php?topic=136.0

Chairman_Smith wrote:

Hey Eyesore, here that guy's story on why he thinks he was the catalyst for the QR firing of Tate.

http://www.vindication156.net/index.php?topic=136.0

So, Tate was being a dick and he was the catalyst for "saving" Queensryche..........

I can buy everything that Tate was going to pull.... but the rest of the band had to have seen some of it coming.

thejokeriv wrote:

Chairman_Smith wrote:

Hey Eyesore, here that guy's story on why he thinks he was the catalyst for the QR firing of Tate.

http://www.vindication156.net/index.php?topic=136.0

So, Tate was being a dick and he was the catalyst for "saving" Queensryche..........

I can buy everything that Tate was going to pull.... but the rest of the band had to have seen some of it coming.

Sounds like the guy is giving himself way too much credit.

Anyone else on like "Hear In The Now Frontier"? I think it's a good enough listen.

Vexer6 wrote:

Anyone else on like "Hear In The Now Frontier"? I think it's a good enough listen.

I really like that album...had it since day 1.

If nothing else, it definitely goes a long way to explain why Samsara could be such a rigid ass about what he would and would not allow on the BDR. I lurked on that forum for a while and found the general tone the mods took there to be an utter drag on proceedings. Considering he was worried about legal implications for years, the whole approach makes a lot more sense.

Overall, I don't think he's taking TOO much credit. He's only saying he was involved and how. Granted, his last big post on the BDR was kind of grandiose, but here, he's just saying what went down. If this is a 100% accurate account of events, I can actually really respect what he did on a personal level and on a friend level as regards Wilton. Not a fun situation to be in as a fan of a band, no question.

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle. It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be. I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

Runicen wrote:

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle.  It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be.  I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

Many people did not like Promised Land at the time it came out. There was a pretty large, collective "WTF?" from a LOT of the fans who came on board during Empire's run at the top since Promised Land was so dark and weird. Empire had already run off a lot of the early fans for being too commercial. Only over time did Promised Land gain any sort of respect.

Personally, I love Promised Land.

Oh, PL is easily in my top 3. It's why I was so excited that the LaTorre fronted band's first offering was clearly mining that territory in their first release.

I'm trying to curb my enthusiasm until I see what comes next...

Runicen wrote:

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle.  It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be.  I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

That's pretty much the case for me as well. I picked up HitNF at the time I was getting interested in metal, and so it was a good bridge between the alternative rock that was popular at the time and this new genre that I was beginning to explore.

I actually hauled it out not so long ago after not having heard it for a while, and while part of the reason that I like it is definitely the nostalgia factor, I still think it's a decent album. While stylistically it may be a far cry from what they were doing in the 80s, there are still some memorable songs on it and I think that was what was lacking from later albums. Although to be fair the only one of those I have is O:M2 and I've only heard snippets of the others, but those snippets didn't make much impression on me.

Vexer6 wrote:

thejokeriv wrote:

Chairman_Smith wrote:

Hey Eyesore, here that guy's story on why he thinks he was the catalyst for the QR firing of Tate.

http://www.vindication156.net/index.php?topic=136.0

So, Tate was being a dick and he was the catalyst for "saving" Queensryche..........

I can buy everything that Tate was going to pull.... but the rest of the band had to have seen some of it coming.

Sounds like the guy is giving himself way too much credit.

Anyone else on like "Hear In The Now Frontier"? I think it's a good enough listen.

That guy is delusional

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Anyone else on like "Hear In The Now Frontier"? I think it's a good enough listen.

I really like that album...had it since day 1.

I love that album. Very different from their other albums, but it's a great one. The last three tracks, "Hit the Black," "Anytime/Anywhere," and "Sp00l," are three of my all-time favorite QR tunes.

Runicen wrote:

If nothing else, it definitely goes a long way to explain why Samsara could be such a rigid ass about what he would and would not allow on the BDR.  I lurked on that forum for a while and found the general tone the mods took there to be an utter drag on proceedings.  Considering he was worried about legal implications for years, the whole approach makes a lot more sense.

Overall, I don't think he's taking TOO much credit.  He's only saying he was involved and how.  Granted, his last big post on the BDR was kind of grandiose, but here, he's just saying what went down.  If this is a 100% accurate account of events, I can actually really respect what he did on a personal level and on a friend level as regards Wilton.  Not a fun situation to be in as a fan of a band, no question.

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle.  It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be.  I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

It doesn't explain why he wouldn't allow someone to discuss, say, "Empire" in a thread about Operation: Mindcrime, even if the conversation naturally went that way. Like I mentioned somewhere, he banned me from the Facebook page because I mentioned liking the saxophone on the song "Promised Land," which I did after someone made a joke about Geoff and his saxophone. So there you have a conversation taking a natural course, and he couldn't handle it.

Whatever his role was, he's a controlling, egomaniacal tool.

No announcement on the name, but looks like The Vest is doing one last show as Queensryche, starring The Vest:

thejokeriv wrote:

No announcement on the name, but looks like The Vest is doing one last show as Queensryche, starring The Vest:

I'd go to that show to see Dammaj and then leave.

Eyesore wrote:

Runicen wrote:

If nothing else, it definitely goes a long way to explain why Samsara could be such a rigid ass about what he would and would not allow on the BDR.  I lurked on that forum for a while and found the general tone the mods took there to be an utter drag on proceedings.  Considering he was worried about legal implications for years, the whole approach makes a lot more sense.

Overall, I don't think he's taking TOO much credit.  He's only saying he was involved and how.  Granted, his last big post on the BDR was kind of grandiose, but here, he's just saying what went down.  If this is a 100% accurate account of events, I can actually really respect what he did on a personal level and on a friend level as regards Wilton.  Not a fun situation to be in as a fan of a band, no question.

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle.  It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be.  I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

It doesn't explain why he wouldn't allow someone to discuss, say, "Empire" in a thread about Operation: Mindcrime, even if the conversation naturally went that way. Like I mentioned somewhere, he banned me from the Facebook page because I mentioned liking the saxophone on the song "Promised Land," which I did after someone made a joke about Geoff and his saxophone. So there you have a conversation taking a natural course, and he couldn't handle it.

Whatever his role was, he's a controlling, egomaniacal tool.

Yeah, no question there. This just may be proof positive that he's not 100% doucher. Maybe just 81%.   

Eyesore wrote:

Runicen wrote:

If nothing else, it definitely goes a long way to explain why Samsara could be such a rigid ass about what he would and would not allow on the BDR.  I lurked on that forum for a while and found the general tone the mods took there to be an utter drag on proceedings.  Considering he was worried about legal implications for years, the whole approach makes a lot more sense.

Overall, I don't think he's taking TOO much credit.  He's only saying he was involved and how.  Granted, his last big post on the BDR was kind of grandiose, but here, he's just saying what went down.  If this is a 100% accurate account of events, I can actually really respect what he did on a personal level and on a friend level as regards Wilton.  Not a fun situation to be in as a fan of a band, no question.

As for HitNF, I dig it, but it definitely loses some steam in the middle.  It's an odd album, but I don't htink it's as bad as it was made out to be.  I came to the entire QR "classic" catalog after the fact, so it wasn't the stark revelation it was for people who were waiting for the followup to Promised Land.

It doesn't explain why he wouldn't allow someone to discuss, say, "Empire" in a thread about Operation: Mindcrime, even if the conversation naturally went that way. Like I mentioned somewhere, he banned me from the Facebook page because I mentioned liking the saxophone on the song "Promised Land," which I did after someone made a joke about Geoff and his saxophone. So there you have a conversation taking a natural course, and he couldn't handle it.

Whatever his role was, he's a controlling, egomaniacal tool.

Most of that community has migrated to a different forum where he's a part of.  He keeps trying to control it even tho he can't anymore by saying "even tho I'm not a mod anymore.... blah blah".  The way he policed his forum always bugged me. I see people often prefacing things with "I hope this isn't off topic..."

I'll second that. I think I've said before, it's why I'd lurk there but never register. There was this attitude of, "The mods are having a conversation - don't offend us when you chime in." Total drag.

By comparison, HoM is the most libertarian meeting of the minds, a veritable philosopher's garden.

Actually, this place is pretty sweet, so maybe we can turn that into the forum's tagline... You know, if someone can sexy that up a little bit.