Machine Head

Eyesore wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

Still scratching my head as to why so many "metalheads" have a problem with groove.

Especially considering nearly every f*cking metal band grooves.

Exactly.

Eyesore wrote:

If you agree with that review, you need to get your ears and head checked. That review was written by an idiot.

Agreed, I would also like to point out that if Rob Flynn & Phil Demmel wanted to be a thrash band, they would be, they do it better than 99% of others that have tried. This ridiculous review seems to imply that they are somehow inferior to thrash, they are not, they are just doing something different, if you don't like it, cool but at least remember who you are talking about.

I would also like to point out that I am in no way related to Ultraboris and his views are his own and in no way reflect mine!

I had high hopes you were him.

Painkiller wrote:

mc666 wrote:

Pay attention everyone. There will be a test on stuff no one gives a f*ck about later.

...yet you clearly gave a f*ck about it enough to quote my post, which was about someone else giving a f*ck about why many metalheads aren't into Machine Head and the like.

This is what the problem is @ H.O.M. There is little civility here-and it's the same posters that are rude continuously (they should know who they are but they probably don't). They think it's their moral imperative to be condescending and rude. Invariably, instead of condoning this behavior the rest of the enablers here encourage this behavior,due to their lack of moral fortitude and wanting to belong.
    No one can express an opinion here it seems without facing ridicule unless you conform to the company line. This is a continuous problem here. Just because some of these people who post here have been here forever,it seems they think the common rules of decorum and decency don't apply to them. MC-if you don't care about the topic at hand good for you-why don't you move on without comment and contribute meaningful insights to a thread instead of just belittling any one you don't agree with?

If everyone here is such dickheads, why do you keep coming back?

I used to hang out at this bar that served really good micro brews and had a killer jukebox. Then the hipsters caught wind of it and the place became overrun with douches in fedoras and ironic facial hair. While I still enjoyed the beer, I couldn't take the clientele so I left to never return. I was not missed one bit.

Short-Fuse wrote:

MC-if you don't care about the topic at hand good for you-why don't you move on without comment and contribute meaningful insights to a thread instead of just belittling any one you don't agree with?

The topic is Machine Head. Not "why Machine Head isn't thrash", or "why elitist metalheads don't like groove". I like Machine Head, so I'm in the right thread. It would seem that it's others who are lost.

Short-Fuse wrote:

Invariably, instead of condoning this behavior the rest of the enablers here encourage this behavior,due to their lack of moral fortitude and wanting to belong.

I think you confuse condone & condemn.

Short-Fuse wrote:

This is what the problem is @ H.O.M. There is little civility here-and it's the same posters that are rude continuously (they should know who they are but they probably don't).

If that's aimed at me, I was once called a "master c*nt" by someone here, simply for suggesting Vektor pay for their own disabled van. I think I've kept my comments much more civil than that.

I think it's on topic to discuss how much thrash is in MH's music.

As for the review, it's pretty ridiculous. A lot of his reviews are just pure hyperbole, even if I like a lot of the same bands he does. And he tries to pretend that some obscure bands like SHAH are better than other popular metal bands ... which is ridiculous. And I'm all about obscure metal.

"Burn My Eyes" is a great album. But not a masterpiece. The drumming for one is phenomenal. Their new drummer is nowhere near the same league. It has like 3-4 really great songs and a lot of filler. It's by far their best disc. They were consciously trying to move away from pure thrash. All those guys had a respectable thrash pedigree but wanted to update it with the times. It's not like it's not a proven fact that they could play great thrash if they wanted to.

So do PRONG and DRI play "half-thrash" too, and does that supposedly make them terrible bands too?

When I see someone online slamming a band/album that I think is great, I try to check out what they think is good and it's usually a clean indication that they have no taste. I'm not saying that with Mr. Short Fuse though because from my recollection he likes a ton of obscure thrash that I do as well.

Are folks like Short Fuse and Ultra-Boris saying that adding groove to thrash can NEVER EVER be done well and NEVER EVER create a good song ... or simply that "Burn My Eyes" was groove-thrash not done well?

MetalGuy71 wrote:

If everyone here is such dickheads, why do you keep coming back?

I used to hang out at this bar that served really good micro brews and had a killer jukebox. Then the hipsters caught wind of it and the place became overrun with douches in fedoras and ironic facial hair. While I still enjoyed the beer, I couldn't take the clientele so I left to never return. I was not missed one bit.

Short-Fuse wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

mc666 wrote:

Pay attention everyone. There will be a test on stuff no one gives a f*ck about later.

...yet you clearly gave a f*ck about it enough to quote my post, which was about someone else giving a f*ck about why many metalheads aren't into Machine Head and the like.

This is what the problem is @ H.O.M. There is little civility here-and it's the same posters that are rude continuously (they should know who they are but they probably don't). They think it's their moral imperative to be condescending and rude. Invariably, instead of condoning this behavior the rest of the enablers here encourage this behavior,due to their lack of moral fortitude and wanting to belong.

    No one can express an opinion here it seems without facing ridicule unless you conform to the company line. This is a continuous problem here. Just because some of these people who post here have been here forever,it seems they think the common rules of decorum and decency don't apply to them. MC-if you don't care about the topic at hand good for you-why don't you move on without comment and contribute meaningful insights to a thread instead of just belittling any one you don't agree with?

WUT?

This is one of the most civil forums I've ever been to! Mc didn't belittle anyone AT ALL. He pointed out that genre classification is a stupid argument...because it is.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it's on topic to discuss how much thrash is in MH's music.

As for the review, it's pretty ridiculous.  A lot of his reviews are just pure hyperbole, even if I like a lot of the same bands he does.  And he tries to pretend that some obscure bands like SHAH are better than other popular metal bands ... which is ridiculous.  And I'm all about obscure metal.

"Burn My Eyes" is a great album.  But not a masterpiece.  The drumming for one is phenomenal.  Their new drummer is nowhere near the same league.  It has like 3-4 really great songs and a lot of filler.  It's by far their best disc.  They were consciously trying to move away from pure thrash.  All those guys had a respectable thrash pedigree but wanted to update it with the times.  It's not like it's not a proven fact that they could play great thrash if they wanted to.

So do PRONG and DRI play "half-thrash" too, and does that supposedly make them terrible bands too?

When I see someone online slamming a band/album that I think is great, I try to check out what they think is good and it's usually a clean indication that they have no taste.  I'm not saying that with Mr. Short Fuse though because from my recollection he likes a ton of obscure thrash that I do as well.

Are folks like Short Fuse and Ultra-Boris saying that adding groove to thrash can NEVER EVER be done well and NEVER EVER create a good song ... or simply that "Burn My Eyes" was groove-thrash not done well?

One thing I have noticed, maybe not here, is that a lot of people who are a fan of groove/nu-metal/metalcore tend not to like the trashier/fast stuff. I have Burn My Eyes and I agree It's mostly depressing filler.It wasn't even the best album of '94. Kyuss took care of that. Now that's an example of a band creating a new(er) style that works. Divine Intervention is also pretty damn good too.

Eyesore wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

Still scratching my head as to why so many "metalheads" have a problem with groove.

Especially considering nearly every f*cking metal band grooves.

BINGO! Do people even know what groove is? If you ever caught yourself doing this motion during a song, it's probably because the song has a groove

Mercyful Fate's early stuff has a lot of groove, but that doesn't put them in the same category as Pantera or Lamb of God.

I believe that most genre classifications are important. Not only that, but different countries have different styles being played, which can't be overlooked by any metalhead with universal tastes.

Painkiller wrote:

Mercyful Fate's early stuff has a lot of groove, but that doesn't put them in the same category as Pantera or Lamb of God.

I believe that most genre classifications are important. Not only that, but different countries have different styles being played, which can't be overlooked by any metalhead with universal tastes.

So Mercyful Fate grooves, as does Pantera, yet only Pantera gets the groove metal label?

Eyesore wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

Mercyful Fate's early stuff has a lot of groove, but that doesn't put them in the same category as Pantera or Lamb of God.

I believe that most genre classifications are important. Not only that, but different countries have different styles being played, which can't be overlooked by any metalhead with universal tastes.

So Mercyful Fate grooves, as does Pantera, yet only Pantera gets the groove metal label?

Mercyful Fate did have several songs heavy on grooves, but they were more varied than that. Consider the neoclassical style of the guitar riffs, the sped-up tempo of the drumming, and the proto-black metal atmosphere of most Mercyful Fate songs, too. "Black Masses" is probably the grooviest song by Mercyful Fate, but it's only apparent during the verse sections.

Pantera, at least since 1992, became more reliant on grooves -- more than most other aspects of the music that they played, actually. There were fast-paced songs like "f*cking Hostile", but those songs were very far and few between. Pantera's last couple of albums were VERY obvious of this, with the simpler guitar riffs and drumming that were even easy enough for a musician in his or her first year to play to. The way that I see it, the most that this band ever put into a recording was Power Metal, which had a lot of potential.

It's all about how predominant an influence or style is. That's how I've always looked at bands.

Painkiller wrote:

I believe that most genre classifications are important..

Yeeah, we've noticed that!

I don't mind someone catagorizing something as groove metal. It just seems like a lot of people use it as some sort of catch-all put down. Same with "core".

Some guy on last.fm blew a gasket because I had Grip Inc. tagged as "post-thrash". I was informed that I was a moron, because Grip Inc. was groove metal garbage, not real thrash like Slayer. Whatever.

Eyesore wrote:

So Mercyful Fate grooves, as does Pantera, yet only Pantera gets the groove metal label?

MERCYFUL FATE has nowhere near as much groove as PANTERA.

What song/section are you referring to?

Simply having a rhythm is not a groove.

mc666 wrote:

I don't mind someone catagorizing something as groove metal. It just seems like a lot of people use it as some sort of catch-all put down. Same with "core".

Some guy on last.fm blew a gasket because I had Grip Inc. tagged as "post-thrash". I was informed that I was a moron, because Grip Inc. was groove metal garbage, not real thrash like Slayer. Whatever.  

They may be groove metal but they're far from garbage.

It's hard to find worthwhile core though.

The whole "groove metal" label is nearly always used as an insult, as it's being used here. It's a denigrating term made up and generally used by elitist metalheads, just like nu-metal. Can't let Pantera and Machine Head sit at the Heavy Metal table. No way.

And Grip Inc. is amazing.

Silly Rabbit, everyone knows groove is in the heart. Tell 'em Bootsy...

I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard "groove" and "Mercyful Fate" being mentioned in the same sentence.

Fat Freddy wrote:

I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard "groove" and "Mercyful Fate" being mentioned in the same sentence.

Like I pointed out, groove in music and groove metal aren't exactly the same. If you want some examples of Mercyful Fate sounding a bit groovy, check out "Black Masses", "Black Funeral", "Gypsy", and the last minute of "Come to the Sabbath". I wouldn't ever categorize them as groove metal, because the band clearly had more going for them than just having emphasis on slow tempos.

Eyesore wrote:

The whole "groove metal" label is nearly always used as an insult, as it's being used here. It's a denigrating term made up and generally used by elitist metalheads, just like nu-metal.

Kind of like how a jock or Hot Topic goth in high school before the recent wave of retro metal bands would've looked at Attacker or Liege Lord as "hair metal whack", right? No, I think the groove metal term definitely is legitimate enough. Perhaps it's your own personal experience that it was generally used as a negative connotation, but I'm quite sure that Pantera's members embraced it when it was gaining popularity. I've even noticed how some of the members on this forum take offense to Ted Nugent, Kiss, or Aerosmith being deemed as mostly hard rock. I can understand how they influenced heaps of metal bands, but apart from certain songs that indeed sound metal, the consistency of these bands being heavy metal is lost on me.

Eyesore wrote:

Can't let Pantera and Machine Head sit at the Heavy Metal table. No way.

When I think of the literal heavy metal genre, I think of Iron Maiden, Dio, Satan, Angel Witch, and the like. In what way would the post-Power Metal era of Pantera or Machine Head be musically similar to the aforementioned bands? The closest connect that groove metal would have in common with is thrash metal, but I still find it hard to place these two bands in the same category as Sodom, Dark Angel, Kreator, Sadus, or Demolition Hammer.

Why can't groove metal sit at their own table? Prog metal doesn't sit at the table either. So what? It's a different style.