So someone mentioned our band in a blog ....

SpectreFate wrote:

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Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was

Slam Dunk!

QFT

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Once I see atheists start acting more Christ-like than people I know from church, then I'll take notice. I haven't seen anything even close to that.

Even if they did you would write it off because you already know they're atheists.

Personally, I know more non-church people who display giving, caring, Christ-like attitudes than church people. The church people I know are selfish, self-important, know-it-all bellyachers who look down their nose at the world.

And, this is something that I've come to over time...while there is nothing wrong at all with Christians playing Metal...or any other form of music...why do these trends in Christianity (music, books, comics, etc) always follow a secular example? Why does the Christian sub-culture simply adopt and christianize what's already there? Jesus was original. Jesus didn't come in and try to set up a sanitized version of Roman government or put His face on tunics to sell to people.

Jesus came down and did things church (temple) people hated. Now, "they hated Me, they will hate you". Who hated Jesus? Who was always in His face challenging Him and the things He did? Church (temple) people. He was loving and helping and healing the people they were trying to manipulate and control. They hated Him more than Rome did. They hated Him more than the common people did. I don't recall a single instance of "the world" (as we have come to define it) hating Jesus...they were flocking to Him in droves (according to the Bible)...straining just to touch His robes...seeking Him out to help their children...asking Him to make wine at a wedding...hanging on His every word by the thousands.

Rome only cared when the church (temple) people complained...it was the church (temple) people who were constantly at odds with Him...calling Him a blasphemer...trying to catch Him in word play...conspiring to have Him killed...they were the ones "hating" Him. They were the ones who wanted Him gone. They were the ones who wanted Him eradicated...not "the world"...but the ones who claimed to have a handle on God.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Personally, I know more non-church people who display giving, caring, Christ-like attitudes than church people. The church people I know are selfish, self-important, know-it-all bellyachers who look down their nose at the world.

That has been my experience as well.

Excellent post Shawn.Sometimes "church" people lose sight of the example Jesus was trying to teach and get caught up in religious politics.

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religious politics.

The downfall of the church, IMO.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

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religious politics.

The downfall of the church, IMO.

Good point! Q: Why is the Republican party in shambles these days? A: The christian right!!!!

thejokeriv wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

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religious politics.

The downfall of the church, IMO.

Good point! Q: Why is the Republican party in shambles these days? A: The christian right!!!!

Trying to force religion into government...oil and water, IMO.

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Even if they did you would write it off because you already know they're atheists.

You make a lot of assumptions don't you?

Talk about looking down your nose ....

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Trying to force religion into government...oil and water, IMO.

Not exactly.

Government is based on a society's morality which is based on their religion.

An atheist government would have no "rights". Why give rights to soul-less clumps of dust anyway? Our founding fathers knew that our rights were endowed by our Creator.

Temple of Blood wrote:

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Even if they did you would write it off because you already know they're atheists.

You make a lot of assumptions don't you?

Talk about looking down your nose ....

I'm basing my observation on your past posting behaviour...nothing more. You do often come across as "better" when speaking of non-Christians (I'm sure you don't mean to)...this is my own observation/conclusion based on posting on boards with you for years. I could very well be wrong, but history and my gut tells me different.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Trying to force religion into government...oil and water, IMO.

Not exactly.

Government is based on a society's morality which is based on their religion.

An atheist government would have no "rights". Why give rights to soul-less clumps of dust anyway? Our founding fathers knew that our rights were endowed by our Creator.

I think an Atheist government would focus more on people and less on God...nothing more. They would most likely eliminate church tax breaks and stop taking money from religious groups...other than that, it would probably not be much different. I'm sure Atheists don't go around stealing, mudering, raping & pillaging just because they don't believe in God.

And you're basing this on what exactly?

Kinda like how you're trying to say you're "better" here by not doing what I supposedly do. Or better than other Christians that you criticize, like in your post in this thread.

Right back atcha.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I think an Atheist government would focus more on people and less on God...nothing more.

Yeah ... it would focus on the people in power and how to get them more power without those pesky individual rights getting in the way.

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They would most likely eliminate church tax breaks and stop taking money from religious groups...other than that, it would probably not be much different.

Ha! Now that's naive. History has told a different story.

The greatest mass murderers in history were totalitarian rulers in atheist regimes.

Hitler - 42 million
Pol Pot - 2.5 million
Stalin - 10-20 million
Mao - 20-30 million

Temple of Blood wrote:

And you're basing this on what exactly?.

I told you what I base it on.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Kinda like how you're trying to say you're "better" here by not doing what I supposedly do. Or better than other Christians that you criticize, like in your post in this thread..

I don't think I'm any better than anyone else. Sometimes my ego gets the best of me and I can act like it...but at the end of the day, if I'm honest, I don't think very much of myself. I think most people in general are better than I am. My criticisms are based on what I've already been through, seen, and come out on the other side of...they're based on my own experiences and/or notions. I don't talk out of my @$$. What really gets my goat, and starts me on my little tirades, are other people who think they have a handle on God/religion and who think that what they believe is 100% fact. Simply believing that implies arrogance. Believing something does not make it fact...it makes it a point of faith.

When it gets down to it, I'm sure you and I probably believe a lot of the same things (not all, obviously)...but, sadly, I'll jump all over a situation where, in my view, Jesus' name is being invoked improperly.

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Yeah ... it would focus on the people in power and how to get them more power without those pesky individual rights getting in the way.

And you seriously think the current government doesn't do this?

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The greatest mass murderers in history were totalitarian rulers in atheist regimes.

So you think Atheists are incapable of existing in a democracy?

It will never cease to amaze me how hypocritical people are when it comes to their "standards" of Christians and the church. Christians are no different than any other human being except they have made a decision for Christ. They are still sinful, they still screw up, they can still hurt people and do stupid things and say terrible and hurtful things. Judge not, lest you be judged.

People are so easily offended. They come to church expecting to be pampered and treated like royalty. Or because they want everybody to fix their problems. And then the minute something negative happens they go crying and screaming and throw a tantrum like a little child. Tell the whole world how evil and corrupt the church is and Christians are because they got burned or they got their feelings hurt. Or God forbid somebody drew a line in the sand. Yet we will all go to work and get talked to like trash, treated like trash, stabbed in the back, used by our so called friends, used by the very people who pay us.....you name it day in and day out and keep coming back, job after job until you retire. OH BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT. What about family? Who here has not been burned by family some of us over and over again. But "they're family". Gotta except them and take them back and keep forgiving them and loving them right?

The bottom line is you are responsible and accountable for you and you alone. If your faith hinges on the actions of others it is no faith at all.

The current government has tons of problems. But it would be MUCH worse if it was based on atheist "principles" from the get-go. We don't murder dissenters in our own country by the millions like Stalin did. You don't see the difference?

The devolution in our country is much more attributed to people who think God has NO PLACE in government whatsoever. How can one not expect it to fall apart?

I'm not talking about merely existing in a democracy. I'm talking about existing in the majority and codifying what the government should do from the get-go. It would be a very different story, as history has shown us.

Good post T-Roy.

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It will never cease to amaze me how hypocritical people are when it comes to their "standards" of Christians and the church. Christians are no different than any other human being except they have made a decision for Christ. They are still sinful, they still screw up, they can still hurt people and do stupid things and say terrible and hurtful things. Judge not, lest you be judged.

I know all to well that Christians are merely people who believe in Jesus. My problem, and personal experience (which, by its very description makes it small compared to the world) is that many (not all) times, many (not all) people who "choose Jesus" end up the most judgmental, loveless, arrogant of people...the exact opposite of the Jesus they chose...and this happens, many (not all) times, the deeper they get into the church...ironic, isn't it? How can this happen to people who choose Jesus, and yet there are people who do not even believe in any sort of invisible power at all who show love, compassion, mercy and grace every day of their lives...where are they getting their example?

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People are so easily offended. They come to church expecting to be pampered and treated like royalty. Or because they want everybody to fix their problems. And then the minute something negative happens they go crying and screaming and throw a tantrum like a little child. Tell the whole world how evil and corrupt the church is and Christians are because they got burned or they got their feelings hurt.

Spoken like someone who loves their church...and I'm glad you do. I didn't go to church expecting it to fix all my problems. I stayed at the same church for 8+ years through good and bad because I loved the people and loved the fellowship. I stayed through plenty of negative things, trying to trust God in spite of them. It wasn't until the people I loved and admired grew fangs and claws and destroyed their pastor because, being the mere human that he is, hidden sin came to light and it embarrassed them. Worse yet, it reminded them of their own hidden sins. In the years that followed I began to see myself in hindsight and how, despite my belief in Jesus, I was (and other I knew were) acting more out indoctrination than faith. I've never stopped believing in Jesus, but I absolutely stopped believing that man was anything more than a broken vessel and, no matter how long they've believed, they'll never be more than a broken vessel longing to be filled. That's not a bad thing to be. But it's when the vessels begin to think they're no longer broken, that they're filled and are setting about to tell other people what they're doing wrong and why they're not filled that the arrogance sets in. Once it sets in, it's HARD to get it out. So, if you think I'm "having a tantrum because something didn't go my way" then that's on you. I know better. The church didn't "burn" me, or hurt me, or disillusion me...the people IN the church did. So, when I see the same behaviour in others that I saw in the people who I once was loyal to and loved, it's hard for me to stay silent...call it a flaw.

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Or God forbid somebody drew a line in the sand. Yet we will all go to work and get talked to like trash, treated like trash, stabbed in the back, used by our so called friends, used by the very people who pay us.....you name it day in and day out and keep coming back, job after job until you retire. OH BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT.

It is different...we have to provide for our and our family's needs...we have to do what we have to do.

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But "their family". Gotta except them and take them back and keep forgiving them and loving them right?

No.

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The bottom line is you are responsible and accountable for you and you alone. If your faith hinges on the actions of others it is no faith at all.

I agree 100%...my faith is not hindered one iota because of what other people do or say.

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The current government has tons of problems. But it would be MUCH worse if it was based on atheist "principles" from the get-go.

What are Atheist principles? Do you know any? Or are you basing this on what you think Atheists are?

Stalin? We're talking about a totalitarian leader again...not a president/democracy. Do you think Atheists are capable of democracy?

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The devolution in our country is much more attributed to people who think God has NO PLACE in government whatsoever. How can one not expect it to fall apart?

Here's where I think you're wrong. The devolution in our country has little to do with God (despite what Christian leaders will have you think) and a lot to do with greed. Greed for power, money, influence over doing what's best for the country.

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Hitler - 42 million
Pol Pot - 2.5 million
Stalin - 10-20 million
Mao - 20-30 million

How many died during the Inquisition and the Crusades? Just wondering.

Isn't religion the source of most wars in history?

Coma wrote:

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Hitler - 42 million
Pol Pot - 2.5 million
Stalin - 10-20 million
Mao - 20-30 million

How many died during the Inquisition and the Crusades? Just wondering.

Isn't religion the source of most wars in history?

I wasn't going to bother...but thanks.

Yeah, I know, too obvious.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Coma wrote:

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Hitler - 42 million
Pol Pot - 2.5 million
Stalin - 10-20 million
Mao - 20-30 million

How many died during the Inquisition and the Crusades? Just wondering.

Isn't religion the source of most wars in history?

I wasn't going to bother...but thanks.

Not to mention the witch trials. Also, like Atheism has anything to do with the fact that the majority of that is COMMUNIST regimes.

T-Roy wrote:

It will never cease to amaze me how hypocritical people are when it comes to their "standards" of Christians and the church. Christians are no different than any other human being except they have made a decision for Christ. They are still sinful, they still screw up, they can still hurt people and do stupid things and say terrible and hurtful things. Judge not, lest you be judged.

People are so easily offended. They come to church expecting to be pampered and treated like royalty. Or because they want everybody to fix their problems. And then the minute something negative happens they go crying and screaming and throw a tantrum like a little child. Tell the whole world how evil and corrupt the church is and Christians are because they got burned or they got their feelings hurt. Or God forbid somebody drew a line in the sand. Yet we will all go to work and get talked to like trash, treated like trash, stabbed in the back, used by our so called friends, used by the very people who pay us.....you name it day in and day out and keep coming back, job after job until you retire. OH BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT. What about family? Who here has not been burned by family some of us over and over again. But "they're family". Gotta except them and take them back and keep forgiving them and loving them right?

The bottom line is you are responsible and accountable for you and you alone. If your faith hinges on the actions of others it is no faith at all.

A+