So someone mentioned our band in a blog ....

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

You don't have to be origional to be a good

QFT

I know, there was a typo there . I tried to edit it right after I sent it but you caught me.

Schbopo wrote:

She may sound like a pretentious, elitist b!tch who's never even heard Temple of Blood, but I agree with some of her points. I would side with her that often times Christian music is just a repackaging of popular secular music with biblical references, maybe "Jesus" thrown in a few times, and like she said, it's not very original (I'm looking at you, Stryper).

I agree that she's probably never heard Temple of Blood, nor does she even care to. She probably just grabbed the name out of a list from Wikipedia because it worked to build up her straw man thesis. She obviously just has an agenda.

However, your Stryper comment seems a bit ignorant of music history.

Stryper were one of the original bands from the L.A. scene, who
have been around just as long as Crue, Ratt, W.A.S.P. and Quiet Riot. All those guys were playing
the strip for years. Tim Gaines was playing in bands headlining over Ratt and Crue long before those bands had label deals. So how are Stryper "not original" and "just a repackaging of popular secular music". Couldn't it be that they were from the same scene and just expressed their beliefs in the same medium?

That arguement could be made for Ultimatum. Scott has often said they're not reinventing the steel just doing it well because they love it. Doing only original music would leave out Testament, Death Angel and the rest of the second wave of thrash not to mention all the other styles of metal.

TheNazgul wrote:

reinventing the steel

Do you get a quarter from Dimebag's estate everytime you say that?

T-Roy wrote:

325ad wrote:

Typical rant by a Non Christian. Scripture says the Cross is Foolishness to those perishing by it. 1 Cor 1:18

Very much in context regarding some opinions in here as well.


Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.


Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.


Jhn 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

2,000 years later it is still dead on accurate.

That right there explains where all the hate comes from. We as Christians witness it everyday. The bottom line is- it is not the bands they despise, it's not the members or even the music. It's Jesus. It's the message.

This is also why I believe Christian music will always be separated from secular. It is not just all the same music. It is different and it always will be different.

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.
Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

Quote :

Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was

Slam Dunk!

Olafsto wrote:

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.

He just quoted from the Bible, that isn't about what he wants. You're just saying the Bible is wrong. And then you say people aren't rejecting Christ's message??? What do you think the Bible is?

Quote :

Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.

Then most people are wrong for doing that.

Quote :

Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

If Christians were always perfect they wouldn't need Christ at all.

Once I see atheists start acting more Christ-like than people I know from church, then I'll take notice. I haven't seen anything even close to that.

Olafsto wrote:

T-Roy wrote:

325ad wrote:

Typical rant by a Non Christian. Scripture says the Cross is Foolishness to those perishing by it. 1 Cor 1:18

Very much in context regarding some opinions in here as well.


Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.


Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.


Jhn 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

2,000 years later it is still dead on accurate.

That right there explains where all the hate comes from. We as Christians witness it everyday. The bottom line is- it is not the bands they despise, it's not the members or even the music. It's Jesus. It's the message.

This is also why I believe Christian music will always be separated from secular. It is not just all the same music. It is different and it always will be different.

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.
Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

Why would I want that? That's the way it always has been and it always will be. Lucky for me, the Word of God prepares me for this. It has nothing to do with what I want. Or what I think. I want nothing more than for everybody to experience what I have. Including my own father and family. But they haven't. This is why.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.

He just quoted from the Bible, that isn't about what he wants. You're just saying the Bible is wrong. And then you say people aren't rejecting Christ's message??? What do you think the Bible is?

I think you know what i mean? My English doesent allow me to go in to in depth debates.
But what i`m saying is that it is very comfortable to hide behind the belief that it is the message people despise, instead of the way many Christians act.....

Where did i say that the Bible is wrong?
The Bible may be right, but the way a lot of you interpret it is very wrong imo....

Once I see atheists start acting more Christ-like than people I know from church, then I'll take notice. I haven't seen anything even close to that.

Well we`re only human right?
When it comes to Religion and Politics we tend to see what we want to see...

[quote="T-Roy"]

Olafsto wrote:

T-Roy wrote:

325ad wrote:

Typical rant by a Non Christian. Scripture says the Cross is Foolishness to those perishing by it. 1 Cor 1:18

Very much in context regarding some opinions in here as well.


Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.


Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.


Jhn 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

2,000 years later it is still dead on accurate.

That right there explains where all the hate comes from. We as Christians witness it everyday. The bottom line is- it is not the bands they despise, it's not the members or even the music. It's Jesus. It's the message.

This is also why I believe Christian music will always be separated from secular. It is not just all the same music. It is different and it always will be different.

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.
Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

Why would I want that? That's the way it always has been and it always will be.


Well i don`t agree with that.
But i guess there is no point in taking it further as none of us are going to change our opinion...

See comments in Green Italics - just throwing in my two cents!

Temple of Blood wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.

He just quoted from the Bible, that isn't about what he wants. You're just saying the Bible is wrong. And then you say people aren't rejecting Christ's message??? What do you think the Bible is?

Actually, The Bible is MORE than just what Jesus taught. And there are Christians are do question how much Paul changed Jesus' message during the early days of the church. Heck, the different early churches didn't agree on everything. Take a look at Jesus fulfilling the law, then Paul saying it is a shame for Men to have hair like women and women needed to cover their head in church. That runs directly counter to Jesus' teachings and fulfilment of the law and in fact is legalistic teaching. BTW - the teaching of biblical innerancy wasn't taught as soon as the Bible was canonized (date depending on which biblical canon you follow) - that was taught later on, even later than the ideas of biblical infallability.

Quote :

Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.

Then most people are wrong for doing that.

Maybe, maybe not, but they do show exactly what kind of person they are - see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

Quote :

Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

If Christians were always perfect they wouldn't need Christ at all.

Once I see atheists start acting more Christ-like than people I know from church, then I'll take notice. I haven't seen anything even close to that.

Very true statement from Olafsto - way too many Christians act the very opposite of Jesus' message. And I have seen pleanty of atheists love they neighbor as they self and do good for the down trodden and poor. I've seen too many christians only do these things for some type of reward or recognition (i.e. 'I help and shared the gospel with them)

The point is Olafsto has some valid points

[quote="Olafsto"]

T-Roy wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

T-Roy wrote:

325ad wrote:

Typical rant by a Non Christian. Scripture says the Cross is Foolishness to those perishing by it. 1 Cor 1:18

Very much in context regarding some opinions in here as well.


Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.


Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.


Jhn 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

2,000 years later it is still dead on accurate.

That right there explains where all the hate comes from. We as Christians witness it everyday. The bottom line is- it is not the bands they despise, it's not the members or even the music. It's Jesus. It's the message.

This is also why I believe Christian music will always be separated from secular. It is not just all the same music. It is different and it always will be different.

I can totally understand that you WANT it to be the message they despise.
But i think you are very wrong.
Most people (wrong or right) judge Christianity by what they see and hear Christians do and say.
Sadly, Jesus biggest problem is that a lot of his followers act the very opposite of what his message was..

Why would I want that? That's the way it always has been and it always will be.


Well i don`t agree with that.
But i guess there is no point in taking it further as none of us are going to change our opinion...

I believe opinions change, I know mine do. I would hope they change especially when confronted by truth. For all of us. Understand though, my beliefs are not in my opinions. I'm an extremely flawed individual. Full of bad habits, bad thoughts and irrational thinking. If my beliefs were in my own line of thought, in my own feelings and impulses, I'd of been dead along time ago. God's ways and his words are very much in conflict with what my mind and thoughts would believe on their own.

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

I disagree - Ult has not turned Jesus into a commodity. They happened to be Christians who put out d*** good metal!!!!!

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

Well then I guess Slayer and others have made a commodity out of Satanic imagery. DAMN THEM!!!

T-Roy wrote:

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

Well then I guess Slayer and others have made a commodity out of Satanic imagery. DAMN THEM!!!

They sold out all the lofty ideals of Satanism and turned it into something crass.

Temple of Blood wrote:

T-Roy wrote:

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

Well then I guess Slayer and others have made a commodity out of Satanic imagery. DAMN THEM!!!

They sold out all the lofty ideals of Satanism and turned it into something crass.

They were not satanist to begin with.

Considering that Satanism is just "do what thou wilt" I'd say they were/are.

Lurideath wrote:

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

I think that's pushing it a bit too far ...

I'm not pro-Christian myself, but I believe most bands, Christians or not, especially when it comes to heavy metal, will sell albums only to gather funds to record the next one and cover the studio expenses of the previous effort, and so on. Some are lucky enough to make a living out of it. I don't think, unlike televangelists, that the main goal here is to gather money to support "the cause".

I do have problems however with bands labelling themselves as "Christian Metal". To me, that is clearly jumping on the bandwagon and an attempt to reach a specific audience rapidly. In my mind, there's no such thing as Christian Metal. You either play heavy metal, power metal, thrash metal, death metal, black metal, etc. A band should be categorized by its music, not its lyrics. Replace all lyrics in a song with "blablabla" and tell me if "Scrolls of the Megilloth" is different than any other death metal album of the time. Do the same for the first Deliverance records and compare them with other thrash releases. Same style? Yes. Let us figure out the lyrics, we can read.

Some will argue that black metal is linked to satanism and worshipping the devil. While I do believe most bands playing black metal adhere to that philosophy, it is nonetheless a style that is recognizable by the music. There again, replace the lyrics with blablabla, put some vintage Immortal on, then some Deicide, and you will easily be able to identify which one is death metal and which one is black metal.

Temple of Blood wrote:

T-Roy wrote:

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

see the money grubbing televangelists, turning Jesus into a comodity. The christian metal bands aren't doing that!

WHAT?? Yes they are just as much as televangelists are. They are selling albums right? That makes it a commodity. They are all doing the exact same thing.

Well then I guess Slayer and others have made a commodity out of Satanic imagery. DAMN THEM!!!

They sold out all the lofty ideals of Satanism and turned it into something crass.

SELL OUTS!

Well I wasn't meaning what I said in a harsh way, so hope no one took it as such.

I don't think it's pushing too far in a general way. Its spot on. To say they aren't using Jesus as a commodity like televangelists are is exactly the same. Living off of it is something completely different.

You don't like putting categories and that is understandable, but bands themselves that list themselves as such is what keeps it down. Same with any specific genre.

There will be a vast portion of different views on that whole aspect because it has been happening for over 50 years. So I'll just stop here and continue later.

Coma wrote:

Lurideath wrote:

I do have problems however with bands labelling themselves as "Christian Metal". To me, that is clearly jumping on the bandwagon and an attempt to reach a specific audience rapidly.

What? Are you in band? Why would anyone specific go out of there way to say Yes, we are a Christian Band? Sometimes people pick up on a positive vibe or the light of the bible in a bands message, but for a band to come out and say yes we are a Christian Band is basically Artistic Suicide. (Especially if your goal is to be mass distributed by a Major Mainstream Label) Reguardless of how well you play your instruments you have just alienated people from ever listening to you. People think you if you are a Christian Band you are going to judge them for not being a Christian or for not living the quote Christian lifestyle, whatever their preconvinced notions of that is. I do not find this judgementalism to be true though with those musicians who are working the scene, this is just a bad stereotype that is usually not true. I am friends with Jeremy Dawson of the band "Shiny Toy Guns" and he was a part of the Christian Music Industry for years with Cloud2ground and as a solo artist, but the biggest problem he and many others have found in Christian Music is the lack of Love. Love is the greatest commandment yet sadly it is usually the last one followed! His band still has a message of hope if one knows where to look. Back when I was managing bands often the time would come where a band would have to decide if they wanted to be known as a "Christian Band" or just a band that has Christian Believers. Almost everytime the bands chose the later.

Music is just Music! It is an artist expression it is not Amoral or Moral, It is not Christian or Satanic. Now, Lyrics and what you are vocally expressing thru your lyrics that is a whole different ball of wax.

Most musicians do not set out with an agenda they just speak from their personal experience or from the way they were raised.

I mean Sully was raised Wiccan so those beliefs come thru in the lyrics written by Godsmack the same as the Christian beliefs or upbringing can be found in the lyrics written by John Petrucci of Dream Theater.

Before somebody jumps up and claims I am saying that Godsmack is an Atheist or Wiccan band and Dream Theater is Christian! THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING, BECAUSE NEITHER IS TRUE, BOTH ARE JUST GOOD ROCK BANDS WITH DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS AND NO AGENDA OTHER THAN TO ROCK!

All that said, I do believe that Christian produced Rock Music has grown to realize that the bands and their music can standout on it's own merits without bringing up we are a Christian Band like was common place in the late 80's to mid 90's. Today, subtlety is the key to mass acceptance. Look at artist like Flyleaf, Paramore, etc.

We've been getting all of those same comments for years. You shouldn't let it bother you. just keep doing what you want to do. If you're going to tout your music as Christian metal, then be prepared to be rejected more than you are accepted. I don't have a problem with anyone singing about what they believe, regardless of what it is after all it's their song, so I don't think they should have a problem with us. but they often do.

Another point to be made is that clear distinctions have existed between Christian and secular forms of the same music.

Today, we would call Blind Willie Johnson a blues artist because that is the style of music that he played (brilliantly, IMO), but he would have corrected you if you had called him a bluesman because blues was "the devil's music", and he was singing about Jesus.

I have a unique perspective, maybe others can relate ?


Being from So. Calif originaly, my experience was that of witnessing God move through music in the middle of the Sunset Strip scene of the mid and late 80's. Musicians who came from near and far to become rockstars more often than not discovered the streets were not paved with gold and
every band didn't make it. Most got caught up in the lifestyle. Churches started to minister to the long haired rockers and grew in numbers.

God moved and lives were changed. Then of course, man chose to take the reigns and push God's will to the side. Ministry became business and
people figured that since they played an instrument, God wanted them to do that. In the end, alot of folks were hurt and taken advantage of by people who claimed to be something they actualy were merely in word and not in action.

My point being that God can and does use music for His glory.
But more often than not, folks make it become something else !