What is so great about Vengence Rising?

Eyesore wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

In all honestly, I think you are correct. Metal is metal. Every band has a lyrical direction. Can you imagine if we labeled every band by their lyrics. Harikrishna metal! LOL!

Agreed. Although I doubt that is the point Eyesore was trying to make.

And what point did you think I was trying to make? You are wrong, though; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. I feel the same way about gangster rap and vegan hardcore and viking metal (which is one of the dumbest tags I've ever heard) and all the other labels that splinters groups from where they musically belong.

I'm cool with things like folk metal or rap rock, as those are two musical styles combined. But combining a musical style with a lifestyle is stupid. It's music. That's what matters. How many people blow off Temple of Blood because some label you guys as Christian thrash? They see that word "Christian" and immediately scoff. Helloween has some heavy Christian leanings, they always have, and sadly they wouldn't be half as popular today if they'd been labeled Christian power metal.

This is similar to my argument that "gay rights" don't exist. A lot of straight people are going to have a difficult time sympathizing with something labeled "gay rights." They're not merry, and the label infers something they can't understand. But human rights, or just rights or freedom, is something we can all relate to. So "gay rights" is stupid. Just like "Christian metal" is. Metal fans abroad can relate to metal. Horns up, you know. Christianity, however, is something a lot of people just can't get down with. And everyone bows to things, and labels are one of them.

Popularity is not the point of bands like Temple of Blood, its to get a message out to people that they believe will have a positive impact on their lives and if it requires being labeled as a form of Christian music to draw more people that believe that, than they will do it.

To be honest I never have been a huge of a fan of VR's music as much as I have been fascinated by the VR story itself. I always look at car crashes too. For some reason the Roger Martinez story seems to pique my interest a lot. Something about his initial conversion to christianity and his subsequent "fall from grace" story just really appeals to me. I dont listen to the bands music an awful lot but I've researched the bands story endlessly. I've even aquired quite a few cool VR relics along the way. One of them being the Destruction Comes guitar instruction vhs tape with Roger and then guitarist Derek Sean. The first time I watched this thing I got goose bumps. Seeing many of Ultmetals numerous posts about the band here has been really informative too. Up until about a year ago I always had the impression that the modern day Roger would be a raving lunatic-homeless madman walking the streets of Covina yelling satanic pundits at anyone willing to listen. I guess thats far from the truth. One thing I always wondered about was why Roger isn't trying to at least cash in a little on the VR name? VR t-shirts on ebay are not exactly cheap and I'd personally dole out a little coin for a VR back patch!

Stender wrote:

Popularity is not the point of bands like Temple of Blood, its to get a message out to people that they believe will have a positive impact on their lives and if it requires being labeled as a form of Christian music to draw more people that believe that, than they will do it.

Popularity was not the point I was making, of course. I simply used that as an example of how labels ignite ignorance.

Eyesore wrote:

And what point did you think I was trying to make? You are wrong, though; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.

Gotcha. I thought you were trying to say Christianity and thrash/metal were imcompatible which is what I hear so often on other metal message boards. It is a common belief amongst metalheads.

Quote :

I'm cool with things like folk metal or rap rock, as those are two musical styles combined. But combining a musical style with a lifestyle is stupid. It's music. That's what matters.

It's not even lifestyle. Not everyone in my band is a Christian. It's a lyrical POV. Kindof like how NOCTURNUS gets called "sci-fi metal" or something like that. It describes the lyrical perspective so in that way it is a good description of the music. How important the lyrical stance is to someone's enjoyment is their own thing to decide.

Quote :

How many people blow off Temple of Blood because some label you guys as Christian thrash?

I don't know, but I'd be interested in finding out.

Quote :

Helloween has some heavy Christian leanings, they always have, and sadly they wouldn't be half as popular today if they'd been labeled Christian power metal.

Yeah, but their Christian lyrics were definitely in the minority of their output. They were easy to ignore. And to me, they expressed anti-Christian sentiment in some of their songs too. So there is a big lyrical difference between them and other Christian metal bands.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

And what point did you think I was trying to make? You are wrong, though; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.

Gotcha. I thought you were trying to say Christianity and thrash/metal were imcompatible which is what I hear so often on other metal message boards. It is a common belief amongst metalheads.

No way. I'm not like that. I listen to the music. Lyrics mean little to me. I won't listen to bands that preach racism and such, but in general I don't care what the lyrics are saying, even if I disagree with them.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

I'm cool with things like folk metal or rap rock, as those are two musical styles combined. But combining a musical style with a lifestyle is stupid. It's music. That's what matters.

It's not even lifestyle. Not everyone in my band is a Christian. It's a lyrical POV. Kindof like how NOCTURNUS gets called "sci-fi metal" or something like that. It describes the lyrical perspective so in that way it is a good description of the music. How important the lyrical stance is to someone's enjoyment is their own thing to decide.

I can agree with that, but perception plays a big role in life, and words are powerful. These words like "gangster" and "viking" and "vegan" may describe simple lyrical content, but they're powerful words to people. "Christianity" is more powerful than most, too.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Helloween has some heavy Christian leanings, they always have, and sadly they wouldn't be half as popular today if they'd been labeled Christian power metal.

Yeah, but their Christian lyrics were definitely in the minority of their output. They were easy to ignore. And to me, they expressed anti-Christian sentiment in some of their songs too. So there is a big lyrical difference between them and other Christian metal bands.

True. But have you ever tried to tell one of those anti-Christian morons out there that like Helloween that their quite a few songs of theirs are Christianity-based? It's hilarious. They scoff, call you crazy, and so on. And that is because, like you said, it's easy to ignore. Saying Helloween is "Christian power metal" is something countless people just can't ignore.

I've tried to discuss/argue with those anti-Christian metallers and it has been fruitless.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I've tried to discuss/argue with those anti-Christian metallers and it has been fruitless.

Don't you know you can't win when you argue with teenagers Temp? : I wouldn't worry about them anyway. If they're like most of my old metal friends they won't even listen to metal anymore in 10 years. Then we can call them posers.

Eyesore wrote:

Stender wrote:

Popularity is not the point of bands like Temple of Blood, its to get a message out to people that they believe will have a positive impact on their lives and if it requires being labeled as a form of Christian music to draw more people that believe that, than they will do it.

Popularity was not the point I was making, of course. I simply used that as an example of how labels ignite ignorance.

I guess I see your point, its just I think that if bands truly believe something than they should be upfront with it and label themselves acordingly for what they are supposedly representing. Peace.

[quote="7thSecond"]

Temple of Blood wrote:

Don't you know you can't win when you argue with teenagers Temp?

especially when they believe they are more brutal then you!

[quote="sam"]

7thSecond wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

Don't you know you can't win when you argue with teenagers Temp?

especially when they believe they are more brutal then you!

You didnt spell that right...more like bR00t3l

[quote="Stender"]

sam wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

Don't you know you can't win when you argue with teenagers Temp?

especially when they believe they are more brutal then you!

You didnt spell that right...more like bR00t3l

I have a sudden urge to listen to Dying Fetus, get my lip pierced, and hail Satan.

[quote="Schbopo"]

Stender wrote:

sam wrote:

7thSecond wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

Don't you know you can't win when you argue with teenagers Temp?

especially when they believe they are more brutal then you!

You didnt spell that right...more like bR00t3l

I have a sudden urge to listen to Dying Fetus, get my lip pierced, and hail Satan.

Sons-Of-Vengeance wrote:

One thing I always wondered about was why Roger isn't trying to at least cash in a little on the VR name? VR t-shirts on ebay are not exactly cheap and I'd personally dole out a little coin for a VR back patch!

In my opinion the only thing hes trying to do is get a rise out of the scene he once was such a huge part of.If a person claims to be such a big satanist or atheist why waste your time dwelling on things that you supposedly dont believe in anymore.I just think he lashed out in bitterness and one day He'll come around.

We really need Stigmatador (Gabriel) to come around. He used to have a great deal of contact with Roger. At one point he was even trying to help Roger put together a band, do up some demos, shop for a record deal, etc. I was a member of his old board, Warpath, until it closed. He would give updates when he could on how things were progressing.

Roger apparently wasn't the easiest guy to deal with, and had constant and wild mood swings. I think towards the end of the Warpath board's life Stig gave up on Roger / Roger split with him and that was that. I'd be interested to hear from Gabriel again, as he was a cool cat in my book. Be interesting to know if he's spoken with Roger at any time since Warpath closed (I think a bit over a year ago now).

I never heard of Vengeance Rising till I starting sniffing around Ult's website and then coming here. Judging from the write-ups and praise the band got, I thought I was really missing out on something great and couldn't wait to hear some Vengeance Rising. Then I finally did. And my excitement faded. I didn't care for it, didn't see what the fuss was about, but pretty much chalked it up to "had to be there" sort of thing. I can respect what they did and can see their place in metal history, but I couldn't get into the little bit I've heard.

Vengeance rules! You guys who don't like them drool!

For those that don't like Vengeance because of the vocals should check out the Once Dead Return With A Vengeance DVD. The vocals are much more brutal on that. I don't remember who the vocalist was though.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I never heard of Vengeance Rising till I starting sniffing around Ult's website and then coming here. Judging from the write-ups and praise the band got, I thought I was really missing out on something great and couldn't wait to hear some Vengeance Rising. Then I finally did. And my excitement faded. I didn't care for it, didn't see what the fuss was about, but pretty much chalked it up to "had to be there" sort of thing. I can respect what they did and can see their place in metal history, but I couldn't get into the little bit I've heard.

I refuse to believe that it is a "you had to be there" sort of thing. Probably more just a matter of taste. I absolutely adore VR, their my fav band of alltime, and as my playlists can attest, I listen to at least one VR album a week. The thing is, I was -2 yrs. old when they put out their first material and not involved in the scene in anyway possible.

Quote :

Roger apparently wasn't the easiest guy to deal with, and had constant and wild mood swings.

On the Destruction Comes vhs tape there is about an hours worth of guitar instruction from Roger and Derek with some commentary peppered throughout from both but on the end of the tape there is about a 35-45 minute segment that has Roger sitting in the studio in front of the camera talking nonstop at a lightning quick pace about everything from the original bands split up to starting a band to surviving on the road and a bunch of other things thrown in. The thing that struck me about that segment was how charged up Roger seemed which I guess was his natural demeanor. He talked so fast with little or no breaks between sentences or thoughts. It seemed like he never paused long enough to take a breath. But if I had to make an observation based on viewing that I would say that Roger might possibly suffer from a bipolar type disorder.

Quote :

In my opinion the only thing hes trying to do is get a rise out of the scene he once was such a huge part of.If a person claims to be such a big satanist or atheist why waste your time dwelling on things that you supposedly dont believe in anymore.I just think he lashed out in bitterness and one day He'll come around.

I believe that to be the case also. The way I see it alot of Rogers friends and support kind of disapeared. I think people may have been distancing themselves from him possibly due to his frantic nature. Roger also blogged once about feeling dupped by christianity after coming in contact with charasmatic faith healers who he found out to be frauds and that combined with other things pushed him towards denouncing christianity altogether.

I'd love to see that Destruction Comes VHS. I didn't even know it existed.

Stender wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I never heard of Vengeance Rising till I starting sniffing around Ult's website and then coming here. Judging from the write-ups and praise the band got, I thought I was really missing out on something great and couldn't wait to hear some Vengeance Rising. Then I finally did. And my excitement faded. I didn't care for it, didn't see what the fuss was about, but pretty much chalked it up to "had to be there" sort of thing. I can respect what they did and can see their place in metal history, but I couldn't get into the little bit I've heard.

I refuse to believe that it is a "you had to be there" sort of thing. Probably more just a matter of taste. I absolutely adore VR, their my fav band of alltime, and as my playlists can attest, I listen to at least one VR album a week. The thing is, I was -2 yrs. old when they put out their first material and not involved in the scene in anyway possible.

True, it was a matter of taste that I didn't care for the vocals, but the music was good. But when I listened to it for the 1st time in say, 2007, it certainly didn't have the impact of "wow, these guys are really doing something different" that it would have back in 19--(whenever their debut was released). My point was if I had been there from the beginning and heard them as a new band on the scene, it could have had a different impact on me. Lots of 80's glam/hair bands are looked at today as a joke, but "back in the day", they had quite an impact on the industry and hold a nostolgic value for me, because I was there.

On the Hot Metal Summer video Roger has a little interview toward the end and He's the same way.He seems well educated and I love to hear him talk.He's a very interesting person for sure.

To the best of my knowlege there are three different VR vhs tapes that Roger released. The first being the No Budget tape which was released around the time of the Once Dead release featuring the original band. The second being the Destruction Comes guitar instruction tape with Derek Sean(pronounced Jon) and Roger and the third being another guitar instructional oriented tape called The Released Upon The Earth guitar instructional tape with Roger handling all the instructions and commentaries.

I've got that No Budget video somewhere.I ordered it from the band back then.They were right about the No Budget thing.Haha.Some good footage on there though.They rip on Into The Abyss.Tight as Hell.

Watch youtube, there are tons of little Roger bits. There is one where he is giving a short message inbetween songs or something and he just goes rabid! It has to be some sort of mental illness...he'll come around I'm sure.