What is so great about Vengence Rising?

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

In all honestly, I think you are correct. Metal is metal. Every band has a lyrical direction. Can you imagine if we labeled every band by their lyrics. Harikrishna metal! LOL!

Stender wrote:

You can bet that if Vengeance never happened alot of your other fav christthrash would not be around

I think that's a highly dubious claim.

ultmetal wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

In all honestly, I think you are correct. Metal is metal. Every band has a lyrical direction. Can you imagine if we labeled every band by their lyrics. Harikrishna metal! LOL!

Agreed. Although I doubt that is the point Eyesore was trying to make.

ULT when you sang for Vengence Rising why not call it Vengence Rising, it seems to be all the members minus one. I am sure you would have gotten more press, I even remember a small article in Guitar World regarding Vengence Rising back in the early 90's.

I dig Mulligan's Stew as well as Burn, Also like Ultimatum's cover of it If i ever see a copy of it for sale I intend to buy it Ive heard enough songs on it to know Id probobly dig it

In fact Ive always said that Ultimatum was very very reminiscant of Vengence Rising

manny wrote:

ULT when you sang for Vengence Rising why not call it Vengence Rising, it seems to be all the members minus one. I am sure you would have gotten more press, I even remember a small article in Guitar World regarding Vengence Rising back in the early 90's.

If I remember right it was cuz of Roger Martinez threatened legal action or something if memory serves that is

That stinks that Roger Martinez wouldn't let you guys use the name, in that case I don't blame them for going with another name. Is Roger Martinez still involved in music or has he moved on?

Addy wrote:

manny wrote:

ULT when you sang for Vengence Rising why not call it Vengence Rising, it seems to be all the members minus one. I am sure you would have gotten more press, I even remember a small article in Guitar World regarding Vengence Rising back in the early 90's.

If I remember right it was cuz of Roger Martinez threatened legal action or something if memory serves that is

Yep,it started out as a VR reunion show but after fearing legal action they changed the name to Once Dead

When this album came out back in the day, it was damn havy and pretty fast. It had energy and aggression. The odd part is that it was a christian based band which shocked a LOT of people (including me). The entire christian market had nothing like this and since this was the 1st to capture such intensity among thrashers back in the day, it sold well.

Roger's vocals were an acquired taste. But I acquired them quickly. Human Sacrifice is by far their best album minus a few songs that I personally hated (Mulligan's Stew, Burn).

You just had to be there when it came out to understand it.

The later 2 albums "Destruction Comes" and "Released Upon the Earth" also have some real good songs, but they tend to drag on and get boring.

manny wrote:

ULT when you sang for Vengence Rising why not call it Vengence Rising, it seems to be all the members minus one. I am sure you would have gotten more press, I even remember a small article in Guitar World regarding Vengence Rising back in the early 90's.

It started out that way. If you watch the DVD and go to the song list you will see the original set list with the Vengeance logo at the top of the list. However, as it got closer and closer to the show, Roger Martinez was beginning to raise a stink, so the name was changed to Once Dead at the last minute. It was the promoters idea to call it VENGEANCE. I had no problem with it either. The four other guys never wanted to call it that, as they didn't want to disrespect Roger Martinez. A logo was designed similar to the VR logo for Human Sacrifice. That was scrappd and at the last minute, Once Dead was decided upon.

I still have this original set list with my foot prints and the tape that was used to hold the set on the stage. It was one of two set lists that didn't immediately disappear from the stage the moment we were done. The other was the one behind the drum riser. I have that one too. It's signed by everyone and was used as the menu for the songs in the DVD.

I just googled Vengence Rising and was wondering if any of this was true or is this all horse sh!t? I got this from Wikipedia:

Vengeance Rising's lineup changed for each subsequent album. While the group was a ground breaking Christian metal band, nowadays Vengeance Rising is known for vocalist Martinez' turning from Christianity to satanism to atheism,^[4] since he has continuously done interviews about it. Allmusic describes Vengeance Rising's history as "one of the most entertaining and bizarre stories in the realm of heavy metal"^[5]

manny wrote:

I just googled Vengence Rising and was wondering if any of this was true or is this all horse sh!t? I got this from Wikipedia:

Vengeance Rising's lineup changed for each subsequent album. While the group was a ground breaking Christian metal band, nowadays Vengeance Rising is known for vocalist Martinez' turning from Christianity to satanism to atheism,^[4] since he has continuously done interviews about it. Allmusic describes Vengeance Rising's history as "one of the most entertaining and bizarre stories in the realm of heavy metal"^[5]

The line-up for the first two albums was the same five guys. After the Once Dead tour in 1990, the band was tired and deep in debt, even though their albums were selling well. Four of the five VR members met with Pastor Bob about ending the band. They decided to record the third album, do a few more shows, sell off the merchandise they had and call it a day. The shows, third album and merch sales would have been enough to pay off the debt. However, Roger didn't want the band to end, so they gave him the name of the band and all the future royalties. With that, he took on the debt of the band. Unfortunately the debt crushed him. The next two albums were him and any number of musicians helping him out. The albums didn't have the same feel and didn't sell as well.

Eventually Roger resented the other four guys for leaving the band and for leaving him with all the debt. He soon started writing horrible letters to everyone on the band's huge mailing list. He was ripping off fans and not sending merchandise out. Eventually he started calling himself a atheist, but his blogs and such were just cartoon satanism and pornography.

A fifth "satanic" Vengeance CD was never recorded, despite what AMG or Wickipedia says. Roger claimed to have demos recorded and albums recorded, but no one ever saw these. Musicians who had worked with Roger said nothing was ever recorded and that Roger was a mess.

The other four guys went on to record two albums and an EP with Die Happy.

I'm still a big fan of Roger's work with Vengeance. It was my honor to step in to the vocal slot for that reunion.

You can hear more about the breakup of the original line-up on the interview section of the DVD.

manny wrote:

I just googled Vengence Rising and was wondering if any of this was true or is this all horse sh!t? I got this from Wikipedia:

Vengeance Rising's lineup changed for each subsequent album. While the group was a ground breaking Christian metal band, nowadays Vengeance Rising is known for vocalist Martinez' turning from Christianity to satanism to atheism,^[4] since he has continuously done interviews about it. Allmusic describes Vengeance Rising's history as "one of the most entertaining and bizarre stories in the realm of heavy metal"^[5]

Thats basically correct. For the first two records by VR it was Roger, Roger, Larry, Doug, and Glen. Then everybody except Roger Martinez split, on destruction Comes it was Roger M., Derek Sean, and Chris Hyde from Deliverance. Then on the last one, Released upon the earth the lineup was Roger M., Jimmy P. Brown and Victor Macias under pseudonames Simon Dawg and Joe Monsorb'nik respectively, and Jamie Mitchell who was also in the punk band Skaterd few.

Although the whole story is indeed bizzare I wouldnt call it entertaining...more like heartbreaking.

[quote="ultmetal"]

manny wrote:

The shows, third album and merch sales would have been enough to pay off the debt. However, Roger didn't want the band to end, so they gave him the name of the band and all the future royalties. With that, he took on the debt of the band. Unfortunately the debt crushed him. The next two albums were him and any number of musicians helping him out. The albums didn't have the same feel and didn't sell as well.

Eventually Roger resented the other four guys for leaving the band and for leaving him with all the debt. He soon started writing horrible letters to everyone on the band's huge mailing list. He was ripping off fans and not sending merchandise out. Eventually he started calling himself a atheist, but his blogs and such were just cartoon satanism and pornography.

poor guy, just took on too much.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Stender wrote:

You can bet that if Vengeance never happened alot of your other fav christthrash would not be around

I think that's a highly dubious claim.

Not really, considering it takes a first for something to catch on. It just so happened that VR was the first "christian" thrash band so I think alot of people thought that it was okay for christians to play that kind of music. The same thing with Rez band and Petra introducing an alternative to harder rock music for the Christian scene. If those bands didnt branch out like they did, christian themed metal would have surfaced a lot later.

Wow!!! That is a sad story regarding Roger Martinez, I was (am) a big fan of thrash and other than a few scattered articles in magazines about Vengence Rising I knew nothing of their history or music. Back than the only Christian heavy metal bands I knew of was Stryper,The Rez Band and Petra.

I hope Roger gets his act together and takes some of that anger and channel it into his music.

ULT thanks for information and backround on the band.

manny wrote:

ULT thanks for information and backround on the band.

yeah alt, perhaps you should write a book and then sell the movie rights

The original articles from Heavens Metal magazine are also on the DVD in PDF format. You can read what was being said at the time by all the band members.

I'll have to agree with Ult, you had to be there. They changed everything musically for me.

Stender wrote:

Blasphemy!...seriously.

Vengeance Rising was arguably the first Christian thrash band in existence so they opened the door for tons of Christian musicians even to this day for that genre. The thrash was unique because it incorporated blues rock in the lead guitar which I'm pretty sure had never been done at that point in thrash. The vocals of Roger are not as good sure, but that adds to the charm for me as well as the production not being top notch. You can bet that if Vengeance never happened alot of your other fav christthrash would not be around....including Ultimatum.

Nonsense

Vengeance Rising did nothing new. Well, yes, they had the blues influence, but that has nothing to do with their thrash sound. Their type of brutal thrash was obviously around in 89'. They did start with their faithful lyrics, but if they weren't around, I do think guys like scott would sit down and think, "hmmmm..maybe I should write christian-based lyrics to go with my thrash metal..". Their type of thrash was not innovative - That is not a bad thing at all, but it certainly shoots down your statement. VR may very well have helped push scott in that direction, but that has nothing to do with the music Ultimatum write

Stender wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

So whats the point your trying to make??

That it's thrash. Separation breeds ignorance. It's thrash metal. Simple as that.

Mglaffas81 wrote:

Stender wrote:

Blasphemy!...seriously.

Vengeance Rising was arguably the first Christian thrash band in existence so they opened the door for tons of Christian musicians even to this day for that genre. The thrash was unique because it incorporated blues rock in the lead guitar which I'm pretty sure had never been done at that point in thrash. The vocals of Roger are not as good sure, but that adds to the charm for me as well as the production not being top notch. You can bet that if Vengeance never happened alot of your other fav christthrash would not be around....including Ultimatum.

Nonsense

Vengeance Rising did nothing new. Well, yes, they had the blues influence, but that has nothing to do with their thrash sound. Their type of brutal thrash was obviously around in 89'. They did start with their faithful lyrics, but if they weren't around, I do think guys like scott would sit down and think, "hmmmm..maybe I should write christian-based lyrics to go with my thrash metal..". Their type of thrash was not innovative - That is not a bad thing at all, but it certainly shoots down your statement. VR may very well have helped push scott in that direction, but they would have released the same albums with the same music regardless.

Different folks different strokes mate. Your opinion means just as much as mine obviously means to you.

I'm not saying VR originated a new sound of thrash, I'm just saying that without their influence christ centered thrash metal would have taken a few years later to start up. Sure, when christians coming out of the worldly scene had fav thrash bands like Slayer and Metallica and whatnot they most probably said "I bet we can do the same thing with edifying lyrics". The thing is though, many people within the christian body didnt believe that God had a place in that sort of music for whatever reason so nothing ever became of that idea. Until VR said look were going to do this, Christian thrash was nonexistent at that point. Believe what you want but those are the facts.

Eyesore wrote:

Stender wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

So whats the point your trying to make??

That it's thrash. Separation breeds ignorance. It's thrash metal. Simple as that.

"separation breeds ignorance"? That's a strange statement. Ignorance of what exactly?

Isn't calling it "thrash metal" separating it from other genres of metal?

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

In all honestly, I think you are correct. Metal is metal. Every band has a lyrical direction. Can you imagine if we labeled every band by their lyrics. Harikrishna metal! LOL!

Agreed. Although I doubt that is the point Eyesore was trying to make.

And what point did you think I was trying to make? You are wrong, though; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. I feel the same way about gangster rap and vegan hardcore and viking metal (which is one of the dumbest tags I've ever heard) and all the other labels that splinters groups from where they musically belong.

I'm cool with things like folk metal or rap rock, as those are two musical styles combined. But combining a musical style with a lifestyle is stupid. It's music. That's what matters. How many people blow off Temple of Blood because some label you guys as Christian thrash? They see that word "Christian" and immediately scoff. Helloween has some heavy Christian leanings, they always have, and sadly they wouldn't be half as popular today if they'd been labeled Christian power metal.

This is similar to my argument that "gay rights" don't exist. A lot of straight people are going to have a difficult time sympathizing with something labeled "gay rights." They're not merry, and the label infers something they can't understand. But human rights, or just rights or freedom, is something we can all relate to. So "gay rights" is stupid. Just like "Christian metal" is. Metal fans abroad can relate to metal. Horns up, you know. Christianity, however, is something a lot of people just can't get down with. And everyone bows to things, and labels are one of them.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Stender wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

There is no such thing as Christian thrash.

So whats the point your trying to make??

That it's thrash. Separation breeds ignorance. It's thrash metal. Simple as that.

"separation breeds ignorance"? That's a strange statement. Ignorance of what exactly?

Isn't calling it "thrash metal" separating it from other genres of metal?

No, it's not. Thrash and metal are musical elements. Christianity is not. By injecting that word into the label, it splits it from music into a lifestyle, and when that happens people focus not on the musical aspect but the lifestyle. They see "Christian" and immediately their ignorance takes over and they ignore the band, or label it worthless.