All things Metallica

Painkiller wrote:

I wasn't asking you if Municipal Waste has any good music.

I'll take Municipal Waste any day.

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Painkiller wrote:

I really hate this argument. If Metallica didn't "define" anything back then, someone else likely would have.

Deathhammer isn't innovating things left and right, but they don't need to. Also, they're more inspired by the early Teutonic scene, so closer to Kreator or Destruction. Unlike most other bands from the retro thrash metal movement, they make music that isn't simply pure imitation.

Besides, you could say Metallica's early output is pretty much a blend of lifted Diamond Head and Saxon riffs, so they weren't all that original. Thrash metal owes a lot to the NWOBHM and hardcore punk.

 
Thanks for telling us that thrash is inherent to NWOBHM and punk ?   Never knew that    It's easy to look back in retrospect and toss in the adage, "somebody else would have". But in this case it doesn't apply.  I didn't say Metallica invented it, did I ? I said they helped define it and they did.   In late 82 and early 83, Metallica and Slayer were the only bands in So. Calif doing this stuff.  You go up north (Bay Area) and the club scene up there had a couple of bands touching base on those same ideas/concepts.  The Tri-State area back east. likewise.  I was in those clubs playing and spectating, so my firsthand knowledge means more to me than anything somebody read in a magazine or on the internet. Either back then or my assumption of you doing it years later. I may be wrong about that (your age) but I doubt it.

As to your comment regarding Deathhammer's influences,  the tagging them as retro and then stating it isn't imitation is a contradiction of terms. especially when using the adverb "simply".

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Painkiller wrote:

That's good that Metallica obviously means a lot to you,

  That's funny   Quit being an issue with me around 1987, sorry.

We were talkin about them being part of the beginning of something, that's it.  In this thread, much less responding to you, I've not once mentioned anything along the lines of what I think about their music.  That isn't relevant to what we are speaking about.  The topic is regarding the historical emphasis of Metallica and their involvement within the origins of thrash metal.

Sorry you took my comments about age as an insult to your knowledge. Don't get how you even think I was  underestimating anything ?  Just said that being there and seeing things as they happened holds more merit than reading about it. Pretty simple concept.   Which leads to saying that I am very passionate about things I took the time and effort to experience on a first hand basis, who wouldn't be.

As to what Deathhammer is doing know, what they once did, and what if they'd done whatever in 1986 is totally subjective.  Once again the conversation comes full circle.  They'd still be late to the game and wouldn't have a style to emulate. (Be it generic, diverse, or Teutonic in flavor.) without insert "pioneering" thrash band name from wherever/whenever.

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Painkiller wrote:

Quote :

 That's why I said whether you were around at the time or not is totally irrelevant

When keeping in the context of discussing something historical, it actually is.

Painkiller wrote:

I can't say I really like them. They're not as bad as Lich King,

Best thing I read in ages because it is so true !  

Painkiller wrote:

I always thought Master of Puppets was one of the most overrated and inconsistent thrash metal albums, but that's only because I'm not restricting myself to just a list of big-name bands to compensate whatever mediocrity they released as some all-time "classic". Kill 'Em All is my personal favorite, and Ride the Lightning is a very good album. I just don't put the band on a high pedestal. They didn't release that many quality albums (in my opinion) to keep me interested. There are so many other, better bands that I'd rather hear.

This brought back very clear memories for me. Even though I had all of Master Of Puppets taped off the radio, I still bought the album, but at least 1/2 of the time I would get up to move the needle off the slow, boring songs!
I don't know about anybody else, but when I was 16-18, I had already checked out Black Sabbath records (and liked them), but wanted speed from supposedly "fast bands" / thrash metal.
Metallica can be thanked for chasing their fans like me away and more into SLAYER... and hardcore/crossover/speedcore ...and MEGADETH .  

Painkiller wrote:

The way you worded your posts gave me the impression that you were trying to talk down on me, as if you somehow held the key to "infinite wisdom".

FYI: That's how you talk.

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Painkiller wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

The way you worded your posts gave me the impression that you were trying to talk down on me, as if you somehow held the key to "infinite wisdom".

FYI: That's how you talk.

Coming from you, you're no better.

I'm not sure your reply makes much sense.

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Your notion that if Sodom had relocated to the States and had a real major label behind them, they would have conquered the world is very funny!   

Firstly, what major label did Metallica have in the early days? Johnny Z pimping the band from his record store. The majors wouldn't go near any of it, bands got known through the underground mags & zines and through demos posted to each other and to fans around the world. How do you think that Sepultura got noticed in Brazil, or Hellhammer in Switzerland or Bathory in Sweden? Secondly, although Sodom are great, they were still doing the Venom thing on the early demos (and records) I'm not sure that they hit stride till '86/87.

Exodus late to the party?   in what way were they late?

Painkiller wrote:

James B. wrote:

Sorry you took my comments about age as an insult to your knowledge. Don't get how you even think I was  underestimating anything ?  Just said that being there and seeing things as they happened holds more merit than reading about it. Pretty simple concept.   Which leads to saying that I am very passionate about things I took the time and effort to experience on a first hand basis, who wouldn't be.

The way you worded your posts gave me the impression that you were trying to talk down on me, as if you somehow held the key to "infinite wisdom". That's why I said whether you were around at the time or not is totally irrelevant. I've noticed a common theme with most older metalheads I've spoken to: they're stuck on a handful of mainstream bands that used to be pretty underground, and that's usually what they ever care to talk about. Unless they were also part of their local scene, the bands still left in the underground usually don't get much attention (except for mostly die-hard fans).

I still maintain that Metallica and Slayer were simply lucky to have been the ones to influence a new era. There were many other bands at the time that could have also fit the bill. Had Exodus not been so late to the party, they'd have been included as part of the Big Four, by far. You also had the likes of Sodom already making their mark circa 1982; had they somehow relocated themselves to the United States by 1983 or 1984, as well as being backed by a proper major label, I'm certainly positive they would have wiped out most of their peers in thrash metal. I'm a firm believer that there are so many possibilities that would and could have occurred, and that the music we know it today could have easily been turned around to another source of inspiration, thus creating new branches.

I normally try to stay out of these pissing matches, but this is dumb.  The facts are what the facts are.  Exodus couldn't get their shit together and didn't have a full length out until 1985.  Metallica sounded like no one else at the time and were revolutionary.  Their combination of speed, melody and accessibility propelled them to the top.  German thrash was essentially unknown in the States until the mid-80s and has never sold worth a damn here.  It was't going to change the world.  I know this because it didn't.

You chide older metalheads for being close-minded, yet you present yourself as some type of troo-steel warrior that is going to set us straight. Talk about close minded - check the mirror.  With all due respect, you need to understand the guys like myself, James B and others were listening to this stuff a decade before you were born.  We understand the context this music was born in.  Does that make us wiser than you? - no, but it is a different perspective than what you have.   In short - get over yourself.  This is a very respectful board and discussion is encouraged here, but try and respect the opinions of others. Frankly, your taste in music and mine are very similar, but I don't shit all over those whose tastes don't match mine.  Play nice.

Witchfinder wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

James B. wrote:

Sorry you took my comments about age as an insult to your knowledge. Don't get how you even think I was  underestimating anything ?  Just said that being there and seeing things as they happened holds more merit than reading about it. Pretty simple concept.   Which leads to saying that I am very passionate about things I took the time and effort to experience on a first hand basis, who wouldn't be.

The way you worded your posts gave me the impression that you were trying to talk down on me, as if you somehow held the key to "infinite wisdom". That's why I said whether you were around at the time or not is totally irrelevant. I've noticed a common theme with most older metalheads I've spoken to: they're stuck on a handful of mainstream bands that used to be pretty underground, and that's usually what they ever care to talk about. Unless they were also part of their local scene, the bands still left in the underground usually don't get much attention (except for mostly die-hard fans).

I still maintain that Metallica and Slayer were simply lucky to have been the ones to influence a new era. There were many other bands at the time that could have also fit the bill. Had Exodus not been so late to the party, they'd have been included as part of the Big Four, by far. You also had the likes of Sodom already making their mark circa 1982; had they somehow relocated themselves to the United States by 1983 or 1984, as well as being backed by a proper major label, I'm certainly positive they would have wiped out most of their peers in thrash metal. I'm a firm believer that there are so many possibilities that would and could have occurred, and that the music we know it today could have easily been turned around to another source of inspiration, thus creating new branches.

I normally try to stay out of these pissing matches, but this is dumb.  The facts are what the facts are.  Exodus couldn't get their shit together and didn't have a full length out until 1985.  Metallica sounded like no one else at the time and were revolutionary.  Their combination of speed, melody and accessibility propelled them to the top.  German thrash was essentially unknown in the States until the mid-80s and has never sold worth a damn here.  It was't going to change the world.  I know this because it didn't.

You chide older metalheads for being close-minded, yet you present yourself as some type of troo-steel warrior that is going to set us straight. Talk about close minded - check the mirror.  With all due respect, you need to understand the guys like myself, James B and others were listening to this stuff a decade before you were born.  We understand the context this music was born in.  Does that make us wiser than you? - no, but it is a different perspective than what you have.   In short - get over yourself.  This is a very respectful board and discussion is encouraged here, but try and respect the opinion of others. Frankly, your taste in music and mine are very similar, but I don't shit all over those who's tastes don't match mine.  Play nice.  

  

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