Heaven & Hell vs Black Sabbath

"13" is too comparable. I'll quote from a review I read on the record, and I understand people will not agree and won't try to understand the viewpoint, but this is precisely how I felt:

Quote :

It’s Sabbath played as Rick Rubin, Sharon Osborne and the mainstream record companies always saw them as, through vision clouded by dollar signs and gold coins. You get sludgy riffing, rocking tempos and doomy lyrics, plus Iommi’s signature bluesy solos and Ozzy’s signature nasal holler, but it’s all just so passé at this point because the songwriting does nothing but ape their old classics. On The Devil You Know we got exciting, propulsive tunes that actually added to the discography; here we just get re-enactments of old tunes with new lyrics set to them. None of these songs suck, but none of them will blow you away either.

The whole idea behind this was to go back to the days before metal, to record something that sounds like it would have come right after Black Sabbath. Which they did…to a fault. The whole idea of Sabbath in the first place was to innovate and progress beyond musical boundaries, to play around and do things nobody had heard before, which ‘normal’ people would find repulsive and ugly. They were as much a rebellious band as any punk outfit with hippie lyrics criticizing war and praising drugs and everything. So the concept of 13 being a ‘back to the roots’ album is ironically exactly anathema to what the band was about. It is the exact opposite to what Sabbath meant in the old days – it is the vacuum in which innovation is sucked up to die. For that I should rate it lower but honestly like I said, none of these songs are truly bad. They’re just mediocre.

none

I understand the viewpoint, but at the same time I also understand reality.  Does the writer of this article really expect Sabbath to be "innovative" 45 years into their recording career?  Especially considering they were one of the most innovative bands of the late 20th century?  Let them be themselves.  Which of course brings into question who was chosen as producer...

I think Rubin's insistence that they try and write a followup album to the debut was incredibly silly (after all they had already done that) but it's par for the course with him, after all he's the one that told Metallica to go back and write the same way they did in 1988.  It's an unnatural request and one that could send a group down a rabbit hole where they feel they have to write in a specific way, which causes them to overthink it, which makes the songwriting suffer.  This process would be akin to a movie studio telling Steven Spielberg to go back and make a followup movie to Jaws, we want it in exactly the same style you had in 1974, please ignore every film you've made since then.  It's a bullshit request.

But you know what, even with Rubin's stupid request I think the band did quite well under the circumstances.  There are some really good tracks on this album.  Dear Father is the best thing I've heard Ozzy do in at least 30 years, it has that Sabbath swagger and menace.  Live Forever, Age Of Reason, God Is Dead are all very solid tunes as are a couple of the bonus tracks.  

The mid-section of Damaged Soul is probably my favorite musical moment from all of last year, the joy of hearing Iommi play a heavy blues again was a wonderful thing.  

Lastly let's tackle this "re-writing old songs" thing.  End Of The Beginning is basically a re-write of the song Black Sabbath and coincidentally it's not one of my favorites, so I can agree with people complaining about that song. And yes, Zeitgeist is essentially Planet Caravan II.  I've also heard some people complain about the song Loner because the riff is reminiscent to N.I.B.  Guess what, War Pigs is basically the same riff as N.I.B. (play them back to back and see) and so are countless other songs in their discography, because that little progression is probably the most common in all of heavy metal and you can find a million variations of it.  and you can thank Iommi for that.  

I just don't think it is fair to say there are no original compositions on the album.

Speaking of End of The Beginning, the shorter edit used during the final credits of "This Is The End" works better than the version on the album. It plays the opening intro up to 42 seconds, then cuts directly to the faster riff at 2:40. Chopping out that 2 minutes makes it more effective and reduces the similarity between this song and Black Sabbath.

S.D. wrote:

Speaking of End of The Beginning, the shorter edit used during the final credits of "This Is The End" works better than the version on the album.  It plays the opening intro up to 42 seconds, then cuts directly to the faster riff at 2:40.  Chopping out that 2 minutes makes it more effective and reduces the similarity between this song and Black Sabbath.

Agreed with everything you said above and this. In fact, I pretty much skip the first two tracks on the album, and not because they're bad, but they're just not as interesting as the remaining tracks. Having End shorter, since it does drag somewhat, makes total sense.

I really do think the album is gold and fits in nicely with the old days. Gone is the experimentation that came around later on, but so what if it's not groundbreaking. It's the old guard writing songs that are on the level of their genesitic material.

I really have no complaints about 13, other than Bill Ward not being there...

corplhicks wrote:

but so what if it's not groundbreaking. It's the old guard writing songs that are on the level of their genesitic material.

I think this applies to both records, I still like both but still prefer 13.

candlemass wrote:

I really have no complaints about 13, other than Bill Ward not being there...

Agreed.

Boris2008 wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

but so what if it's not groundbreaking. It's the old guard writing songs that are on the level of their genesitic material.

I think this applies to both records, I still like both but still prefer 13.

Very true about Devil You Know, which is a masterpiece in its own right--my second favorite of the Heaven & Hell lineup.

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

S.D. wrote:

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

What that edit did for me is seriously remind me that I need this record on vinyl!!   

S.D. wrote:

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

Many thanks. Sounds incredible.

I went with 13. Both are good. I consider them two bands with such different approaches. I didn't think there was any re-tread on 13, and yet I do think they wanted to capture that vibe going on in the early 70's. Similarities are bound to exist, after all they are Black Sabbath and how many years separated from their beginnings. TDTYK is as equally good, but for different reasons. This was a great way for Dio to go out. Bible Black, that's a song I get so caught up in. I really enjoy the early Black Sabbath and 13 has a great vibe going on. It's not the 70's, but I like it just the same.

Uh, yea, that one song is definitely a re-tread of "Planet Caravan", there are other moments as well...but I have no problem w/that, Priest sort of did the same thing w/"AoR", as an ode to the past, both were done tastefully.

S.D. wrote:

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

That's pretty cool to hear. Thanks.

S.D. wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

I enjoy them both. I'm not sure what is "lackluster" or "boring" about either one of them. What do people expect from these guys? I went with Devil You Know.

Evidently they expect them to magically transform back into the people they were in 1970 and 1980 respectively and release albums somehow capable of being directly compared to albums they released 35 and 45 years ago.  In other words, laughably unrealistic expectations.  

Apparently so. No, neither album will top the band's classic albums, but can any band really top their classic albums from decades ago? Nostalgia is hard to overcome and even if it's not nostalgia, the youthful spontaneity and energy cannot be reproduced by guys in their 50s and 60s. I'm just glad that these bands I enjoy are still making music I enjoy.

I think Saxon did it, but their classic lp's weren't really all that "classic"...

W/"TDYK", there are at least three tracks on there that would fit right in w/the classics; "Fear", "Follow the Tears" and "Bible Black", just not sure if there's anything on 13 that would...

I love them both, but I'd rather hear Dio than Ozzy.

candlemass wrote:

I think Saxon did it, but their classic lp's weren't really all that "classic"...

To you. For me, and many other metal fans, those early Saxon albums are untouchable classics.

Some of the songs yes, but I thought they had quite a few fillers in there as well, didn't hear any on "Lionheart."

S.D. wrote:

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

Cool, thanks.

Saxon just rules stuff all around, honestly..

journeyman wrote:

S.D. wrote:

I duplicated that shorter edit of The End Of The Beginning from the end credits of This Is The End if anyone is interested.  It cuts the song down to 6 minutes.  

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98553016/01%20End%20of%20the%20Beginning-Edit.mp3

P.S. - the source is the LP.

Cool, thanks.

What the heaven and hell is this all about?

candlemass wrote:

What the heaven and hell is this all about?

  

Download the file and find out.