Heaven & Hell vs Black Sabbath

akeldama wrote:

I have said since day one that The Devil You Know is a better album and I still hold to that for many reasons. Although I do prefer Dio Sabbath I don't base my choice on my prejudices. I know a lot of people who choose 13 just cuz it features Ozzy.

So what your saying is that your choice is based purely on artistic merit, but if someone prefers 13 it's just because it's Ozzy? I've made my dislike of Ozzy pretty clear on here and the last record that I've bought with him on it prior to 13 was The Ultimate Sin back in the mid 80's. The fact is though that Iommi writes different types of songs to suit Ozzy than the ones he did when RJD was in the band. I like both but prefer the 70's Sabbath style that veered away from the straight 80's metal path that they had with Dio, more twists and turns that I just dig, the interplay between Tony and Geezer on this type of stuff was part of what made me fall in love with Sabbath.

It seems from what people have said here that more people dislike 13 'just because it's Ozzy' and I'm partially in agreement with this, his voice is pretty shot these days and he was never going to put in a great performance now, but for me they just about get away with it because some of the music is magical albeit not exactly original, but I decided not to catch them live in case Ozzy was a horrible mess.

I love Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, I'm also a fan of Ronnie's voice but  I think that The Devil You Know is waay over rated around these parts although it is okay.

The Devil You Know has "13" votes now.   

"Straight 80's sound?" I don't think so...

I don't think any said they disliked 13, and I don't like it less because of Ozzy's vox.

Boris2008 wrote:

akeldama wrote:

I have said since day one that The Devil You Know is a better album and I still hold to that for many reasons. Although I do prefer Dio Sabbath I don't base my choice on my prejudices. I know a lot of people who choose 13 just cuz it features Ozzy.

So what your saying is that your choice is based purely on artistic merit, but if someone prefers 13 it's just because it's Ozzy? I've made my dislike of Ozzy pretty clear on here and the last record that I've bought with him on it prior to 13 was The Ultimate Sin back in the mid 80's. The fact is though that Iommi writes different types of songs to suit Ozzy than the ones he did when RJD was in the band. I like both but prefer the 70's Sabbath style that veered away from the straight 80's metal path that they had with Dio, more twists and turns that I just dig, the interplay between Tony and Geezer on this type of stuff was part of what made me fall in love with Sabbath.

It seems from what people have said here that more people dislike 13 'just because it's Ozzy' and I'm partially in agreement with this, his voice is pretty shot these days and he was never going to put in a great performance now, but for me they just about get away with it because some of the music is magical albeit not exactly original, but I decided not to catch them live in case Ozzy was a horrible mess.

I love Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, I'm also a fan of Ronnie's voice but  I think that The Devil You Know is waay over rated around these parts although it is okay.

What I am saying is I just like TDYK better overall. Better tones, better mix, better individual performances but that's just me. Iommi did some great stuff on '13' I hadn't heard him do on an album in a long while but I still feel he and Geezer played and sounded better on TDYK, Geezer had a better tone to my ears. I said I'm not basing my opinion on the fact that I prefer Dio Sabbath in fact since I'm so into Doom/Stoner one might think the contrary. It's hard to compare Ozzy and Dio when it comes down to it (apples & oranges) but Dio is the better singer. What I said about '13' is that I PERSONALLY KNOW PEOPLE that have told me '13' is better just cuz Ozzy is on it and that's not a fair assessment to me but...

My gripe about the Dio Sabbath era is that I wish Geezer handled more lyrically to mix it up more and he's a GREAT songwriter in his own right. I might dare say '13' trumps TDYK lyrically. Ozzy sounds like Ozzy and that's good enough for me, I have always liked Ozzy's voice a lot. I completely agree that Ozzy Sabbath was a better band, they had a lot of twists and turns and some great interplay that was lost on Dio Sabbath and beyond. To me the Ozzy era of Black Sabbath is the best Rock/Metal, (or call it what you will), rhythm section of all time.

I don't know why anyone makes a big deal... Neither album compares to the music from their heyday.

Because those are classics that can't be touched, but I think they both did lp's worthy of their legacy.

Both are ok... but they still lack a bit IMO.

candlemass wrote:

Because those are classics that can't be touched, but I think they both did lp's worthy of their legacy.

Neither album is a slouch by any stretch of the imagination and I'd easily take both of them over the slopping foam that's hip today or that's been hip in the last umpteen years.

Do people directly compare the older Sean Connery of The Rock with his much younger self from Dr. No or Goldfinger? No, they don't and it would be unfair to do so, he's older and the type of role has changed accordingly. There is 30 years separating The Rock from Dr. No and that's less than the time separating Never Say Die from 13. I don't expect a group of guys in the their 60s to come out and outperform what they did in their 20s, it's not a fair comparison.

Yea, but I'll take Saxon's "Lionheart" over anything they did in their heyday!

I loved both albums but I voted for '13', I am not sure if its a stronger album then the 'Devil You Know' but I loved the power of the album and Iommi is still the man.

Both great albums but I just felt '13' is a stronger album.

S.D. wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

The poll results almost give me hope for you guys.   

I have the exact opposite reaction to that.  

Frankly, I'm shocked at the results.

Both are better than I thought they would be. Was very happy to have the new material from these two great bands. Had to go with 13, tough call though. Might change my mind in the morning.

I thought after reading the thread title that it was Sabbath w/Ozzy debut vs. Sabbath w/Dio debut.  Boy was I disappointed .     Couldn't really get into "The Devil You Know" aside from a few tunes.   So I choose "13".    The drumming is way better (IMHDO) and that's all that matters  

James B. wrote:

I thought after reading the thread title that it was Sabbath w/Ozzy debut vs. Sabbath w/Dio debut.  Boy was I disappointed .     Couldn't really get into "The Devil You Know" aside from a few tunes.   So I choose "13".    The drumming is way better (IMHDO) and that's all that matters  

I actually thought the same thing, thinking "what the hell kind of poll is that??" But this makes a little more sense. I'm with you on 13, although I wish the mix on the drums would have been a bit fuller I guess. Regardless, he does a great job in Bill's place.

Eyesore wrote:

The Devil You Know. Easy.

13 is a great album, but Ozzy's voice gets tiring after a while.

This

The reason I picked 13 (in spite of being tired of Ozzy) is the songs. I thought 13 had better songs. I respect those of you who factor in the production and the sound, but my ears are shot from tinnitis so most of that goes over my head. Or should I say in one ear and out the other?

Same reason I picked "TDYK", better songs...

Voted for The Devil you Know.

S.D. wrote:

Do people directly compare the older Sean Connery of The Rock with his much younger self from Dr. No or Goldfinger?  No, they don't and it would be unfair to do so, he's older and the type of role has changed accordingly.  There is 30 years separating The Rock from Dr. No and that's less than the time separating Never Say Die from 13.  I don't expect a group of guys in the their 60s to come out and outperform what they did in their 20s, it's not a fair comparison.  

Wellllllll, I gotta say I love the older Connery. Especially "Highlander". But not "Zardoz"!   

MetalGuy71 wrote:

thejokeriv wrote:

Can't choose... both are excellent albums! As much as it sucked to lose Dio, at least he went out on a high note with TDYK. If Sabbath is done after 13, they at least will go out on a high note.

I'm having the same dilema. I really enjoy both albums. Today, I might vote for 13. Tomorrow could be TDYK.

I went back and voted for Sabbath & 13. As much as I like the Dio years, when I want to hear Black Sabbath, I'm reaching for something from the Ozzy years, be it 70's classic or 2013 new.

I have to be in the mood for Dio-era stuff. Equally good in it's own way, but different. In the same way I like both eras of Van Halen, but when I want a fix, I'm reaching for DLR-fronted music.

I never need a VH fix, I'm immune to such things!   

I too am glad we got both, which are at the very least really good lp's. It was beginning to look like we'd get nothing, and I was really surprised by the re-union w/Dio again, never thought we'd see that after Costa Mesa!

I enjoy them both. I'm not sure what is "lackluster" or "boring" about either one of them. What do people expect from these guys? I went with Devil You Know.

ultmetal wrote:

I enjoy them both. I'm not sure what is "lackluster" or "boring" about either one of them. What do people expect from these guys? I went with Devil You Know.

Evidently they expect them to magically transform back into the people they were in 1970 and 1980 respectively and release albums somehow capable of being directly compared to albums they released 35 and 45 years ago. In other words, laughably unrealistic expectations.