Hellhammer vs. Celtic Frost

So I was over at another metal board where there are a lot of young "kvlt troo metal" fans. They are having this discussion/debate. I'm amazed at how many people are picking Hellhammer over Celtic Frost. I guess it's the "troo arcane metal" thing to choose.

Hellhammer was ok. I don't hate them, but they weren't anything compared to the greatness of Celtic Frost. Frost was a creative force IMO. I even like Cold Lake. I don't really give a rat's ass is others don't like it or think it's too glam. There are some great songs on it. Tom Warrior says he hates it now, but if he hated it so much why did he re-record and remix some of the songs for Parched with Thirst?

Anyhow, I don't get it? Hellhammer were basically a bad Venom clone. BNR metal got it right:

BNM Metal wrote:

Regarded as an influential band in both the death and black black metal fields, Hellhammer's life was intentionally cut short as founder Tom Warrior, realizing the limitations of the band, regrouped and formed the much-improved Celtic Frost. At the time, Apocalyptic Raids drew sharply divided opinions, most finding the raw, simplistic style either brilliant or laughably worthless. Admittedly, this is not a BNR favorite, as the EP is really a pretty amateur affair. What was good about Hellhammer is exactly what Tom took with him to Celtic Frost.

It's like you said it's the "troo kvlt" thing with Hellhammer. When that came out I remember reading reviews where it was described as one of the worst things recorded. I think a lot of black metal fans embrace it more now due to that raw, unpolished recording that lots of the newer black metal type stuff is done.

I prefer Celtic Frost too. From the experimentation on Into The Pandemonium to the glammier stuff of Cold Lake. It's just better to my ears.

Hellhammer sucks, Celtic Frost was a good decade ahead of their time.

ultmetal wrote:

So I was over at another metal board where there are a lot of young "kvlt troo metal" fans. They are having this discussion/debate. I'm amazed at how many people are picking Hellhammer over Celtic Frost. I guess it's the "troo arcane metal" thing to choose.

Hellhammer was ok. I don't hate them, but they weren't anything compared to the greatness of Celtic Frost. Frost was a creative force IMO. I even like Cold Lake. I don't really give a rat's ass is others don't like it or think it's too glam. There are some great songs on it. Tom Warrior says he hates it now, but if he hated it so much why did he re-record and remix some of the songs for Parched with Thirst?

Anyhow, I don't get it? Hellhammer were basically a bad Venom clone. BNR metal got it right:

one evolved into the other, it's the same thing in my eyes. just as with Triptykon. i like them all equally. it's got nothing to do with kvlt troo metal, troo arcane metal, or any other ridiculous terms you want to throw around because you love Cold Lake so much.

Early CF and Hellhammer are my favorites. Anything after "Tragic Serenades" is just pointless experimentation, IMO. Just a band stabbing in the dark and constantly missing.

mc666 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

So I was over at another metal board where there are a lot of young "kvlt troo metal" fans. They are having this discussion/debate. I'm amazed at how many people are picking Hellhammer over Celtic Frost. I guess it's the "troo arcane metal" thing to choose.

Hellhammer was ok. I don't hate them, but they weren't anything compared to the greatness of Celtic Frost. Frost was a creative force IMO. I even like Cold Lake. I don't really give a rat's ass is others don't like it or think it's too glam. There are some great songs on it. Tom Warrior says he hates it now, but if he hated it so much why did he re-record and remix some of the songs for Parched with Thirst?

Anyhow, I don't get it? Hellhammer were basically a bad Venom clone. BNR metal got it right:

one evolved into the other, it's the same thing in my eyes. just as with Triptykon. i like them all equally. it's got nothing to do with kvlt troo metal, troo arcane metal, or any other ridiculous terms you want to throw around because you love Cold Lake so much.

Huh? I love Cold Lake so much? I said I like ALL Celtic Frost, including Cold Lake. I certainly don't like it moreso than the rest of their catalog. As a matter of fact, it's not even a favorite. It's just the album they most people seem to needlessly rag on the most from the Frost catalog.

Hellhammer and Celtic Frost are not the same thing. Different band. Different sound. Obviously the was a reason why Tom disbanned Hellhammer and started a new band. Sure, it was what led into Celtic Frost, but it's not the same thing. No more than Lightforce is the same as Mortification because one led into the other, or Hawkwind is the same as Motorhead because one opened up the door for the other. Two different bands. Two different sounds.

As for the "troo kvlt metal" thing, that is a term they use to describe themselves. It's not something I am "thowing around". Someone was even discussing the "cult status" of Hellhammer whereas CF are sellout.

Quote :

Hellhammer for sure. I love everything Hellhammer has done (and like it more then anything Celtic Frost did). Early Celtic Frost was good....but ehhhhhh f*ck off new Celtic Frost

What's wrong with you? Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

I am no way an expert on any of this since I don't think I've ever heard any Celtic Frost except for their cover of Mexican Radio (eh,it's okay) and the only song I heard from Hellhammer is their song Crucifixion on one of the Metal Massacres (and it's godawful,probably the worst song on any of the MMs). So by that great measuring system,I gotta go with Celtic Frost.

Into The Pandemonium was a masterpiece and one of the most interesting albums of the 80's...and I consider the 80's as one of the most Over-rated periods in music history.

I was never a particularly big CF fan to be honest but compared to what little I've heard of the Hellhammer stuff (it's been years), I'd take C.F. any day. Even "Cherry Orchards" CF.

As for the "tr00 arcane steele" crowd, there will always be those elitists who think that a band's first album (or even their first demo) that nobody else heard but them is the only thing worth listening to, anything else they do is just sellout crap, blah de blah de blah...y'know, that whole "I'm more underground than you" thing.

Fat Freddy wrote:

that whole "I'm more underground than you" thing.

in other words, MORONS.

Shawn D. wrote:

Into The Pandemonium was a masterpiece and one of the most interesting albums of the 80's

100% agree, this is an excellent album that holds up today. Hellhammer is ok and without them maybe Celtic Frost would not have happened and the budget to make that Hellhammer album must have been negative 0, I knew even less about production then and even to my ears it sounded cheap.

ultmetal wrote:

Hellhammer and Celtic Frost are not the same thing. Different band. Different sound. Obviously the was a reason why Tom disbanned Hellhammer and started a new band. Sure, it was what led into Celtic Frost, but it's not the same thing. No more than Lightforce is the same as Mortification because one led into the other, or Hawkwind is the same as Motorhead because one opened up the door for the other. Two different bands. Two different sounds.

i said it's the same thing in my eyes. however i should have said "to my ears", as early Celtic frost was most definitely an evolution of Hellhammer's core sound. i didn't state that Hellhammer changed their name to Celtic Frost. of course they were two separate entities.

Yes, you can certainly hear the early CF sound in Hellhammer, though the recording is so incredibly raw it makes it very different. It seems that raw (low-budget) recording is what a lot of fans like about it. I can certainly understand that. I think Raven's stuff is the same. Their early recordings were so raw and low-budget, but it's part of the charm of those records IMO.

I'd much rather listen to some classic Ultimatum than Celtic or Hellhammer....

Id take CF. I really didn't think anyone took Hellhammer seriously because it really wasn't around that long and it was pretty underground. Hellhammer wasn't around long enough to prove anything or be influential to anyone at its time. Maybe later on after CF become known and people heard about Hellhammer through that. They had some ideas but nothing like CF became known for. They were more or less a garage band and I don't care how many people will argue at how great they were. They really weren't.

I love CF when they had that reissue of the Hellhammer albums I went right out to pick it up. I heard things here and there and I knew how crappy it sounded. When I finally heard it, it was even worse than I thought.

It boggles my mind when I hear people say they love that raw sound. Music doesn't have to be polished or done with click tracks or any other studio nonsense, but the recording has to be good. Those Hellhammer albums weren't.

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

I'd much rather listen to some classic Ultimatum than Celtic or Hellhammer....

Stender wrote:

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

I'd much rather listen to some classic Ultimatum than Celtic or Hellhammer....

I love both bands, but I'll go with Celtic Frost on this one.

I don't love neither.

Hellhammer sucks. Frost all the way.

I guess Hellhammer turned out to be very inluential in the long run. Maybe even more so than CF.

Me, I haven't heard a full album from either band.

Hellhammer`s LP cover "Apocalyptic raids" kicks ass!!! As for the music its really good for 1984!!!

i'm glad there are others who can understand what was so special about Hellhammer.

as for the production, being a grindcore, goregrind, crust punk, powerviolence, & black metal fan... i'm used to raw, dismal productions/recordings. it doesn't bother me. to me it comes down to the songs, which Hellhammer had.

i understand how it can turn someone off though. those who get a hard-on when they see Andy Sneap's name on the cd just ain't gonna get it, no matter what.

i still say Celtic Frost were just as good though, for different reasons & in a different way.

Quote :

I love CF when they had that reissue of the Hellhammer albums I went right out to pick it up. I heard things here and there and I knew how crappy it sounded. When I finally heard it, it was even worse than I thought.

Hellhammer had one official EP, the other were demos and sound as such. If you ask me, the early Venom albums sound worse and they were official recordings.

Celtic Frost but I'll agree with this statement:

Cognitive Dissonance wrote:

I'd much rather listen to some classic Ultimatum than Celtic or Hellhammer....