Second Tier Thrash Bands?

This is a term I have seen a lot around here lately. It's one I had not previously been familiar with. It was somewhat explained to me (I think by MC666).

But I want to hear what your opinions are as to the definition of Second Tier Thrash, and what bands you feel fall into that category.

Also, is this term typically applied within other metal genres? I haven't heard it used there.

Thanks!

ack

I've always thought of Second Tier bands as any thrash band that wasn't one of the "Big 4" but came out either around the same time or shorty after the Big 4 broke into the mainstream. They've reached some level of success, but not quite mainstream. Bands like Testament, Overkill and Exodus are prime examples. Sure, they're known & respected by us, but ask someone not familiar with heavy metal and they wouldn't know who they are.

That's my definition anyhow. I'm sure they'll be lots of opinions on this topic.

Yeah, that definition has almost every thrash band at 2nd Tier.

What are the big 4?

ack

To me, it's always been the tag stuck on the thrash bands that came after Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax and Metallica. All of those seem to have come along and put out albums before everyone else (between '83 and '85).

Some of the "second tier" bands were every bit as good as the front runners, they just came along a bit later, or didn't manage to get their albums released until later (Exodus is the prime example, as Bonded By Blood kept getting delayed; they even influenced most, if not all of the Big 4).

To me this is like the second wave of thrash metal. Not Bay Area or East Coast thrash, but rather the bands that came after those.

AchrisK wrote:

Yeah, that definition has almost every thrash band at 2nd Tier.

What are the big 4?

ack

Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, & Slayer were/are considdered the "Big 4" of the thrash movement. While some may argue who came first, it was these 4 that hit with any kind of success, having a very distinct sound from one another and really sounding like noone else in comparison. While all were named "thrash", each band had their own style that made them stand out. There was no confusing an Anthrax song with a Slayer song.

To me, it's as if those 4 bands laid the foundation that everyone else in thrash, aka Second Tier bands, built upon. That's not to take anything away from the 2 tier bands. They too, for the most part, were able to create their own sounds and are a very talented bunch. For whatever reason, they just missed the boat the first time around.

Quote :

Some of the "second tier" bands were every bit as good as the front runners, they just came along a bit later, or didn't manage to get their albums released until later (Exodus is the prime example, as Bonded By Blood kept getting delayed; they even influenced most, if not all of the Big 4).

Well said!

Wow, that seems like an odd definition. Anyone who isn't Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax or Slayer!? I suppose it's the only way to define it objectively, but with that definition it almost seems like an extraneous term. As soon as you name the band, and it isn't Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax or Slayer, there seems to be no need to call them second tier.

ack

I always understood the second tier bands to be the one's that gained popularity after the initial wave of popular band's; Slayer, Anthrax, Metallica, Overkill, Megadeth, Exodus, etc. were the first. By the mid-to-late 80's guys like Testament, Dark Angel, Death Angel, Forbidden, etc. were gaining popularity and signing major label contracts.

AchrisK wrote:

Wow, that seems like an odd definition. Anyone who isn't Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax or Slayer!? I suppose it's the only way to define it objectively, but with that definition it almost seems like an extraneous term. As soon as you name the band, and it isn't Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax or Slayer, there seems to be no need to call them second tier.

ack

I'm not saying that it's the be-all-end-all definition of second tier, but that's how I've always thought of it. I guess when you look at it that way, it does seem like a mighty big umbrella to sweep everyone under.

Does anyone else see it differently?

I always thought of the "tier system" in thrash working out like this:

The phrase "Big Four" was coined to describe Metallica, Anthrax, Slayer, and Megadeth, i.e. the guys who were selling the most records and had the highest profiles in the genre.

The "Second Tier" were the bands that may not have sold as many records as the above, but were still quite popular in the underground (i.e. Overkill, Testament, Death Angel, Suicidal Tendencies, Exodus, etc.)

The "third tier" was... pretty much everybody else. Most of the bands that came around towards the end of the big thrash boom (say, late '90/early '91) suffered from "Third tier" status because labels were snapping up every John Doe thrash band they could get their hands on in the hopes of finding "the next Metallica," then releasing one or two album(s), and dropping the bands when they didn't sell enough records. Not that they were ALL bad bands, many of them were great, but they simply came to the thrash party too late to make any kind of impact.

metalguy - I wasn't picking on you for that definition. You're not the only one who said that. But I am picking on the definition a little bit.

But Freddy brings up a point that may help, and that is "Third Tier Thrash". I had not heard that term used, but if it is a valid term, then I think it would give much more validity to the term "second tier thrash". I can see a whole system or structure that may actually be helpful in communicating ideas.

So do you all agree that there is also "third tier thrash"? What do you see as the dividing line between second and third? Is it when they hit the scene? Does it include quality level at all? Is there a fourth tier (or 5th, etc)?

This is interesting.

ack

Quote :

metalguy - I wasn't picking on you for that definition. You're not the only one who said that. But I am picking on the definition a little bit.

No worries. I didn't see it that way. I'm just over-explaining myself I guess. It's a slow day in work. Freddy's & Ult's explinations work just as well too.

All those definitions seem to agreed upon for the most part, as they are fairly similar. I use to term 'tongue in cheek' b/c I think it is unfair to a lot of bands who I think put out music of equal quality of the 'big 4'.

I still believe that if you take the best two albums of any of the 'big 4' you can take the best two albums by Overkill, Testament, Suicidal Tendencies, Forbidden, Heathen, Xentrix, Atrophy, Death Angel, etc and they are just as good. They may not have the 'emotional impact' or take you back to that place as those others (at least not for me). But if given a fair shake---they certainly compare.

Fat Freddy put it fairly well.

I understand this term to be more about quality music rather than mainstream success. I would never say Overkill and Testament were second tier thrash. I would put bands like Sacred Reich and Wargasm there. Great bands, but not quite at the same level as those really killer bands. The second tier is far more populated than the top tier, too.

Eyesore wrote:

I understand this term to be more about quality music rather than mainstream success. I would never say Overkill and Testament were second tier thrash. I would put bands like Sacred Reich and Wargasm there. Great bands, but not quite at the same level as those really killer bands. The second tier is far more populated than the top tier, too.

exactly. bands like Onslaught, Defiance, etc fall into a second tier category. not because they were second rate, but basically because they always seemed to be imitating the formula (sometimes very well) of the more successful bands.

What I haven't seen mentioned at all are the Germanic bands. Destruction, Kreator, Sodom, etc.

Then there are bands like Sacrifice and Coroner.

Is this a bay area thrash formula categorization?

ack

No, Kreator and that ilk fall into German thrash, or European thrash. Either label is used. Their sound was slightly more aggressive, less melodic, and included precursors to death metal.

Personally for me there are three tiers. Obviously, the big 4 and perhaps Sepultura, Kreator and maybe, maybe Testament belong in the first tier.

Bands like Overkill, Vio-lence, Nuclear Assault, Death Angel and Tankard are second tier. They were definitely popular but never achieved mainstream recognition, even if they had videos on MTV and the metal mags did features on them.

Third tier acts include the likes of Faith or Fear, Holosade, E-X-E, Gammacide, Hobbs Angel of Death, Toranaga and any other obscure thrash band you can think of -- bands that released one or if they were lucky, two albums, and achieved little to no popularity, even in the underground. Bands that are pretty much all but forgotten today, except to real diehard thrash fanatics.

Personally, for me, the quality of music has nothing to do with why such and such band is placed into a particular tier. Record labels' marketing and distribution and touring has a lot to do with it. Also, how early or late in the game they debuted plays a big part as well, unfortunately for a lot of talented late 80s/early 90s acts (particularly the tech-thrash bands like Intruder, Realm, Toxik.)

Quote :

Toranaga

God's Gift is a great album! I need to rummage thru my cassettes and find that!

zombiewalkin wrote:

Quote :

Toranaga

God's Gift is a great album! I need to rummage thru my cassettes and find that!

Just won myself a CD copy of that off of eBay for cheap! Anxious to get my grubby little mits on it. Been trying to score a copy for about 2 years now, but the ones I put on watch always went for more than I wanted to pay.

Now I just need to track down their first disc, Bastard Ballads.

for german thrash you have the main guys like destruction, kreator & sodom. then you have the second tier guys like holy moses & tankard etc.

second tier?

i would call it the second wave of thrash after the big bands came along

testament and vio-lence are awesome examples of these bands

SideShowDisaSter wrote:

No, Kreator and that ilk fall into German thrash, or European thrash.  Either label is used.  Their sound was slightly more aggressive, less melodic, and included precursors to death metal.

Teutonic thrash is another name for the same thing.