McCain or Obama

tohostudios wrote:

I gotta admit that "Geezer and Gams" line cracked me up.

Same here, that is what inspired me to do the "Dumbo and The Dummy" line.

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It sure blew up over at Rock Island when we tried it.

Never!!! At the CMR we're reminded by a certain someone over and over how perfect and harmonious it is at Rock Island!!

manny wrote:

I agree its been cool that no one's flamed each other, Joker, toho and I have rarely agreed but we have been civil about our disagreements, now if only politicans could be as civil during elections.

Too bad that will probably never happen! I tend to be more libertarian than conservative, mainly on some socially conservative issues because I believe it can take away some of our freedom - i.e. i am not for merry marriage because I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, but I support in domestic partner benefits, and that government has no right to take away the estate of the surviving member of a merry union, I am against censorship (if you don't like what is on TV, TURN IT OFF! What a child watches is the parent's responsibility), for all freedom of speech (if you don't like what someone is saying, don't listen. The extreme liberal that control the democratic party are too quick to lable anything they don't like as "hate speech")), not a fan of public schools teaching creationism (that's religion and we in US have a seperation of church and state). On the other hand, I support the 2nd admendment (it is part of the constitution), School choice and prayer groups in school (any religion, since we have freedom of religion in this country)

Let's keep it going!!!!!!

And I am voting for McCain because I think Obama is a socialist and socialism (or even social democracy) will never work in the US (we're way to big)(KMORG - I know the difference on the political spectrum).

Olafsto wrote:

You have the world view of a stereotype american redneck. That`s fine, but dissapointing coming from you.

I'll point out that that is also a stereotype and move on.

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A question, don`t you pay one single cent of tax in your country?
If you do, you too are a slave, according your own definition of the term.

Yes, I do... far too much in my estimation, and yes, I am also an economic slave, just as you are. I'll admit here the word "slave" is a bit inflamatory, but I used it not to offend but to make the point that socialism, both in America and in Europe is a form of slavery. I'll explain why I say that.

How do we define slavery? A good working definition is: "Slavery is a set of circumstances whereby one person is forcibly used to serve the purposes of another person and has no legal claim to the fruits of his labor." In many ways that describes not only communism, but also socialism and social democracy. They are different in degree, as I said, but not in basic underlying philosophy.

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Of course we have economical freedom, I can spend my money exactly the way I want to. To even think that our government has anything to say in my personal spending, shows again that you have no clue what you are talkin about.

LOL, I understand where you are coming from and I also understand more about your system than I have perhaps let on. You are indignant at the thought that the government would have any say in how you spend your money in purchasing food for example, and rightly so, but how about when the government takes your money and decides how you can or cannot spend it on healthcare? Isn't that just as much of an egregious encroachment on your rights? I believe that it is.

I make a fairly good wage, and get taxed at a 15% rate on it federally. Add to that state taxes, property taxes, sales tax, gas tax, vehicle taxes, etc... and I would estimate 35-40% of my income goes to the government. Despite the fact that I am taxed at this rate, I am still classified as "poor". While I pay for most of my living expenses myself, I cannot afford to pay for health care directly, so I do have state coverage for that. I hate that it has to be that way, but the fact is I could not afford to do it any other way.

I am on medication that requires a blood check every so often, and the doctor sometimes adjusts the dosage level based on the blood work results. But if I go to the pharmacy to try to fill the new prescription, I am sometimes told that they will not fill it because I already have enough medication left, even though it is at the wrong dosage level! I was behind another man at the pharmacy yesterday who was in the same boat. When someone else is paying the bill, they have the right to decide what you do or don't need. I don't know about you, but I think medical decisions should be made by the patient and the doctor, not some government or insurance company bean counter.

And there are other examples. Government regulations here in America have encroached on almost every area of life. There are very few things that I can spend my money on that my government has not had a hand in. Yours is the same. So yes, I say we are both slaves to some degree.

kmorg wrote:

Tall T: I think we average somewhere paying about 30% of our income in taxes. If you earn less, you pay less, if you earn more, you pay more. There are flaws in every system, and in Norway we do get a little pissed when we pay 30% taxes, then go on paying taxes on the food, taxes on the gas, taxes on alcohol and cigarettes, taxes on using the roads etc. BUT, we have economical freedom on what the goverment doesn't gat for our taxes, of course! Why would you even think differently?

To a certain degree you have economic freedom, but in many ways, your spending is restricted, as is mine.

Quote :

Also with your system you have to pay insurance money up the whazoo to get help when you are sick, for the dentist etc. So in a way you spend your money both ways, it's just more stress to take care of it yourself.

Filling out forms for the government and filling out forms for an insurance company work out to about the same thing. I see no real differance in the hassle, other than insurance companies at least offer different choices and a little bit more freedom. Not much, but a little.

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Hust look at how many uninsured people there are in the US. And worse your off jobwise, or income-wise, the worse it gets' Is it really fair that you get less help just becasue you're poor?

I don't follow you here. The poorer you are the more help you get. The poorest people (and I would argue that almost no one in Europe or America is truly poor), get the most help.

What I mean is that if you are in a financial rut, and it might not be your own fault, you can't afford insurance, thus you don't get the best healthcare.

In Norway they treat you the same regardless. And no, you don't have to fill out forms every time you go to a doctor, or even the ER.

kmorg wrote:

What I mean is that if you are in a financial rut, and it might not be your own fault, you can't afford insurance, thus you don't get the best healthcare.

Not true. Everyone has access to health care, and it is the same regardless of your ability to pay.

Now, if you are referring to the ability to get certain treatments, then sure, those with the means to pay for them directly have more options. That is precicely what I have been saying. Putting the government in charge of healthcare means you give government officials the ability to decide what treatment you "need" rather than leaving that up to the doctor and patient.

Then again, it is much the same with any other area of life. Those with more money have access to better houses, better cars, better food, better everything. It's just the way it is and always has been.

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In Norway they treat you the same regardless. And no, you don't have to fill out forms every time you go to a doctor, or even the ER.

It's much the same here. I have an insurance card that I show when I get treatment. It is renewed every year by filling out some paperwork.

Tall Tyrion wrote:

kmorg wrote:

What I mean is that if you are in a financial rut, and it might not be your own fault, you can't afford insurance, thus you don't get the best healthcare.

Not true. Everyone has access to health care, and it is the same regardless of your ability to pay.

Now, if you are referring to the ability to get certain treatments, then sure, those with the means to pay for them directly have more options. That is precicely what I have been saying. Putting the government in charge of healthcare means you give government officials the ability to decide what treatment you "need" rather than leaving that up to the doctor and patient.

Then again, it is much the same with any other area of life. Those with more money have access to better houses, better cars, better food, better everything. It's just the way it is and always has been.

Quote :

In Norway they treat you the same regardless. And no, you don't have to fill out forms every time you go to a doctor, or even the ER.

It's much the same here. I have an insurance card that I show when I get treatment. It is renewed every year by filling out some paperwork.

Mine's online through work - check which one I want every year, pay my copay and be done with it.

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

You have the world view of a stereotype american redneck. That`s fine, but dissapointing coming from you.

I'll point out that that is also a stereotype and move on.

Quote :

A question, don`t you pay one single cent of tax in your country?
If you do, you too are a slave, according your own definition of the term.

Yes, I do... far too much in my estimation, and yes, I am also an economic slave, just as you are. I'll admit here the word "slave" is a bit inflamatory, but I used it not to offend but to make the point that socialism, both in America and in Europe is a form of slavery. I'll explain why I say that.

How do we define slavery? A good working definition is: "Slavery is a set of circumstances whereby one person is forcibly used to serve the purposes of another person and has no legal claim to the fruits of his labor." In many ways that describes not only communism, but also socialism and social democracy. They are different in degree, as I said, but not in basic underlying philosophy.

Quote :

Of course we have economical freedom, I can spend my money exactly the way I want to. To even think that our government has anything to say in my personal spending, shows again that you have no clue what you are talkin about.

LOL, I understand where you are coming from and I also understand more about your system than I have perhaps let on. You are indignant at the thought that the government would have any say in how you spend your money in purchasing food for example, and rightly so, but how about when the government takes your money and decides how you can or cannot spend it on healthcare? Isn't that just as much of an egregious encroachment on your rights? I believe that it is.

I make a fairly good wage, and get taxed at a 15% rate on it federally. Add to that state taxes, property taxes, sales tax, gas tax, vehicle taxes, etc... and I would estimate 35-40% of my income goes to the government. Despite the fact that I am taxed at this rate, I am still classified as "poor". While I pay for most of my living expenses myself, I cannot afford to pay for health care directly, so I do have state coverage for that. I hate that it has to be that way, but the fact is I could not afford to do it any other way.

I am on medication that requires a blood check every so often, and the doctor sometimes adjusts the dosage level based on the blood work results. But if I go to the pharmacy to try to fill the new prescription, I am sometimes told that they will not fill it because I already have enough medication left, even though it is at the wrong dosage level! I was behind another man at the pharmacy yesterday who was in the same boat. When someone else is paying the bill, they have the right to decide what you do or don't need. I don't know about you, but I think medical decisions should be made by the patient and the doctor, not some government or insurance company bean counter.

And there are other examples. Government regulations here in America have encroached on almost every area of life. There are very few things that I can spend my money on that my government has not had a hand in. Yours is the same. So yes, I say we are both slaves to some degree.

Well TT, thanks for the debate.
We have our differencies, but I also understand where you are coming from.
I love to discuss these things as long as one can keep it friendly, and respect eachother.
I think we have, maybe apart from me calling you a redneck, which I apologize .
From what I can understand, our systems are not that far apart from each other.
No one likes to pay tax, or paying in general .
But I choose to look at the positive side of it and see how much I get in return from the society i live in.
And I also take pride in contributing to it, solidarity, unity, and helping those less fortunate aint all that bad .

Fair enough.

And I wasn't offended by being called a redneck. No worries.

spectrefate wrote:

Quote :

But let's be honest here. How safe would I have been in that same situation if Obama was assassinated the night before?

Not to be all crazy cat lady, but that is a scary thought. Imagine race riots all over. The very fabric of the country could change. Finally everyone would have to face the 800 lb gorilla we all have been overlooking for generations.

The FBI broke up a plot by a bunch of skinheads in Tennesee earlier this week, that was apparently planning to assassinate Barack Obama (as well as other numerous black leaders) "or die trying." Makes you wonder how many other nutjobs may be out there right now planning the same sort of thing.

Fat Freddy wrote:

spectrefate wrote:

Quote :

But let's be honest here. How safe would I have been in that same situation if Obama was assassinated the night before?

Not to be all crazy cat lady, but that is a scary thought. Imagine race riots all over. The very fabric of the country could change. Finally everyone would have to face the 800 lb gorilla we all have been overlooking for generations.

The FBI broke up a plot by a bunch of skinheads in Tennesee earlier this week, that was apparently planning to assassinate Barack Obama (as well as other numerous black leaders) "or die trying." Makes you wonder how many other nutjobs may be out there right now planning the same sort of thing.

Yeah, no joke. I read about that. I am not voting for obama, I disagree with his political views, but he does not deserve to be assasinated - this is America, difference of political views are allowed with being killed (unlike, say china)

According to the paper, the two "skinheads" in Tennesee probably wouldn't have been able to pull off their little plot because by all accounts they weren't even bright enough to tie their own shoes. They apparently got busted trying to rob a house and their "plot" was ratted out to the authorities by someone who'd overheard them bragging about it.

... but who's to say that there aren't somewhat brighter, more organized psychos out there??

Fat Freddy wrote:

According to the paper, the two "skinheads" in Tennesee probably wouldn't have been able to pull off their little plot because by all accounts they weren't even bright enough to tie their own shoes. They apparently got busted trying to rob a house and their "plot" was ratted out to the authorities by someone who'd overheard them bragging about it.

... but who's to say that there aren't somewhat brighter, more organized psychos out there??

Believe me there are. Try watching that show "Lock Up" and you'll see how smart or clever criminals can be.

Hey everybody,
You can still vote for Howard The Duck as a write-in candidate. Let's make it his year!!

Complain about McCain or Obama or the political system in general but at least they didn't propose this idea as the goverment of Vietnam has:

AP) Faced with mounting public criticism, Vietnam's Health Ministry suspended a widely ridiculed plan to ban short, thin and small-chested drivers.

The ministry had recommended that people whose chests measure less than 28 inches be prohibited from driving motorbikes _ as well as those who are too short (less than 4 -foot- or too thin (less than 88 pounds).

When the media revealed the plan this week, it prompted disbelief and scorn among members of the public, who envisioned the police pulling over female drivers to measure their breasts.

Thursday's state-run Tuoi Tre newspaper quoted ministry official Nguyen Huy Quang as saying the proposal would be suspended.

Police officers immediately announced a strike unless the policy was reinstated.

I worry about riots is Obama loses.

Eyesore wrote:

I worry about riots is Obama loses.

That's actually not that far fetched.

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

I worry about riots is Obama loses.

That's actually not that far fetched.

Well according to Democratic spokesperson James Carville, there will be riots in the streets if Obama DOESN'T win.

Either scinerio is just as likely as the other. There's just as many people who want a black president as there are that don't (racism works both ways you know).

DallasBlack wrote:

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

I worry about riots is Obama loses.

That's actually not that far fetched.

Well according to Democratic spokesperson James Carville, there will be riots in the streets if Obama DOESN'T win.

Either scinerio is just as likely as the other.

that's pretty much what Eyesore just said. not winning would be the same as losing.

Just 5 more days and then we can all STFU.

Thank god this election is almost over.

spectrefate wrote:

Just 5 more days and then we can all STFU.

In 5 more days I'll be replacing my "Vote for Howard the Duck" signature pic with "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For Bill-N-Opus." Watch for it!