McCain or Obama

Bush is not the only one to blame. Cheney? Rove?

Olafsto wrote:

If you had said communism, I would have agreed 100%, but believe it or not, there is a HUGE differnce between a social democracy and a communist state.

Only in degree, not in underlying philosophy. Communism is very much based on the Socialistic model, it is just that Communism is enforced militarily rather than accepted willingly by the masses. Socialism, whether Democratic or not, is based on the idea that the collective is more important than the individual. The farther along this line you go, the more personal freedoms are eroded. Bottom line, Socialism is a form of slavery, in that the state has the right to make personal decisions on your behalf.

Under a system of slavery, one person is owned by another. The master makes decisions for the slave, including the confiscation of all of the fruit of the slave's labor and in turn, accepts the responsibility to provide food, shelter, health care, etc for their slave. Socialism merely replaces the master with the state. In a Democratic Socialistic system, the subjects vote for whever they think the best master will be, but their personal freedoms are still sublimated to the needs of the state.

I'm not trying to be a smartass with this, or put you down, bro. Just trying to explain how I see socialism and why I really don't like it. If you like it and think it works for you, more power to ya, but I don't care for it. I'd rather die free than live as a slave.

Tall Tyrion wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

If you had said communism, I would have agreed 100%, but believe it or not, there is a HUGE differnce between a social democracy and a communist state.

Only in degree, not in underlying philosophy. Communism is very much based on the Socialistic model, it is just that Communism is enforced militarily rather than accepted willingly by the masses. Socialism, whether Democratic or not, is based on the idea that the collective is more important than the individual. The farther along this line you go, the more personal freedoms are eroded. Bottom line, Socialism is a form of slavery, in that the state has the right to make personal decisions on your behalf.

Under a system of slavery, one person is owned by another. The master makes decisions for the slave, including the confiscation of all of the fruit of the slave's labor and in turn, accepts the responsibility to provide food, shelter, health care, etc for their slave. Socialism merely replaces the master with the state. In a Democratic Socialistic system, the subjects vote for whever they think the best master will be, but their personal freedoms are still sublimated to the needs of the state.

I'm not trying to be a smartass with this, or put you down, bro. Just trying to explain how I see socialism and why I really don't like it. If you like it and think it works for you, more power to ya, but I don't care for it. I'd rather die free than live as a slave.

You need to take a trip abroad to widen your horizon my friend!!!!
Maybe we are misunderstanding eachother. As I tried to make clear, a social democrat is not a sosialist.
We have a number of political parties in Norway, actually one of the largest ones is a right wing party much like your own republican party.
If they win, they are in office for four years.
We have total political and religious freedom here.
We also have freedom of speach, we were one of the first countries to publish Salman Rushdie`s "Satanic Verses" (the publisher got shot by terrorist, but survived)
You sound like a smart man TT, but calling us slaves, shows a level of ignorance beyond belief.
Your next vacation should definitely be Europe..

I early voted today for the first time ever. I had to do my part to keep Geezer 'N' Gams out of the White House.

spectrefate wrote:

I early voted today for the first time ever. I had to do my part to keep Geezer 'N' Gams out of the White House.

I'm sorry to say, TT, you really do sound like you have very little grasp on how things outside your country works.

If our system isn't working, why are we ranked as the number 1 country to live in, year after year? Becasue we are good slaves?

kmorg wrote:

I'm sorry to say, TT, you really do sound like you have very little grasp on how things outside your country works.

If our system isn't working, why are we ranked as the number 1 country to live in, year after year? Becasue we are good slaves?

It does work for a small country that has significantly less corruption.

spectrefate wrote:

I early voted today for the first time ever. I had to do my part to keep Geezer 'N' Gams out of the White House.

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the White House. Empty promises just like any other politician.

troublezone wrote:

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the white house. Empty promises just like any other politician.

True. But if he dies, a clueless soccer mom won't automatically inherit the office.

spectrefate wrote:

troublezone wrote:

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the white house. Empty promises just like any other politician.

True. But if he dies, a clueless soccer mom won't automatically inherit the office.

I don't think Palin is great by any measure but she has B.O. beat in the experience dept. He hasn't even ran a city let alone a state.

troublezone wrote:

spectrefate wrote:

troublezone wrote:

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the white house. Empty promises just like any other politician.

True. But if he dies, a clueless soccer mom won't automatically inherit the office.

I don't think Palin is great by any measure but she has B.O. beat in the experience dept. He hasn't even ran a city let alone a state.

True that is why Collin Powell endursed Palin due to all of that great experince.

Have you seen McCain's mom? She is nearly 100 so i think McCain has a good chance of lasting four more years.

manny wrote:

troublezone wrote:

spectrefate wrote:

troublezone wrote:

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the white house. Empty promises just like any other politician.

True. But if he dies, a clueless soccer mom won't automatically inherit the office.

I don't think Palin is great by any measure but she has B.O. beat in the experience dept. He hasn't even ran a city let alone a state.

True that is why Collin Powell endursed Palin due to all of that great experince.

What makes Colin Powell the go to man in all things wise? I know he is respected but he is not the greatest person in the world that makes or breaks a person.

With all due respect the hours, issues , and problems that arise as President have taxed healthier and younger men, that McCain's mom is 90 years old is nice, but it says nothing how kind of pressure McCain would face as president would affect his health.

manny wrote:

With all due respect the hours, issues , and problems that arise as President have taxed healthier and younger men, that McCain's mom is 90 years old is nice, but it says nothing how kind of pressure McCain would face as president would affect his health.

In that case Bush should have died 3x over with all the blood on his hands and conscience.

troublezone wrote:

manny wrote:

troublezone wrote:

spectrefate wrote:

troublezone wrote:

Bad B.O. will not make a difference in the white house. Empty promises just like any other politician.

True. But if he dies, a clueless soccer mom won't automatically inherit the office.

I don't think Palin is great by any measure but she has B.O. beat in the experience dept. He hasn't even ran a city let alone a state.

True that is why Collin Powell endursed Palin due to all of that great experince.

What makes Colin Powell the go to man in all things wise? I know he is respected but he is not the greatest person in the world that makes or breaks a person.

Maybe not but McCain's people courted him, he has been worked for 3 Republican Presidents, also he served as United States National Advisor from 1987-1989, Chairman Joints Chief of Staff 1989-1993, and United States Secretary 2001-2005, a Vietnam decorated war vet, if you don't trust his judgement and he is wrong, after all he did outright say that Palin is not qualified and he trust Obama's leadership , than he who's judgement do you trust? If Reagan, Bush sr and W Bush trust his judgement where they wrong for putting him in that postion? if they were wrong why did McCain try to court him?

troublezone wrote:

manny wrote:

With all due respect the hours, issues , and problems that arise as President have taxed healthier and younger men, that McCain's mom is 90 years old is nice, but it says nothing how kind of pressure McCain would face as president would affect his health.

In that case Bush should have died 3x over with all the blood on his hands and conscience.

We were only talking about health and effects the office has had on the men that have held that postion not his conscience that is between him and his God.

manny wrote:

troublezone wrote:

manny wrote:

With all due respect the hours, issues , and problems that arise as President have taxed healthier and younger men, that McCain's mom is 90 years old is nice, but it says nothing how kind of pressure McCain would face as president would affect his health.

In that case Bush should have died 3x over with all the blood on his hands and conscience.

We were only talking about health and effects the office has had on the men that have held that postion not his conscience that is between him and his God.

Stress from a guilty conscience can lead to a heart attack or stroke.

Quote :

Maybe not but McCain's people courted him, he has been worked for 3 Republican Presidents, also he served as United States National Advisor from 1987-1989, Chairman Joints Chief of Staff 1989-1993, and United States Secretary 2001-2005, a Vietnam decorated war vet, if you don't trust his judgement and he is wrong, after all he did outright say that Palin is not qualified and he trust Obama's leadership , than he who's judgement do you trust? If Reagan, Bush sr and W Bush trust his judgement where they wrong for putting him in that postion? if they were wrong why did McCain try to court him?

He's getting older and possibly less sharp. It's known to happen... even to the best of 'em.

troublezone wrote:

Quote :

Maybe not but McCain's people courted him, he has been worked for 3 Republican Presidents, also he served as United States National Advisor from 1987-1989, Chairman Joints Chief of Staff 1989-1993, and United States Secretary 2001-2005, a Vietnam decorated war vet, if you don't trust his judgement and he is wrong, after all he did outright say that Palin is not qualified and he trust Obama's leadership , than he who's judgement do you trust? If Reagan, Bush sr and W Bush trust his judgement where they wrong for putting him in that postion? if they were wrong why did McCain try to court him?

He's getting older and possibly less sharp. It's known to happen... even to the best of 'em.

Using that logic than should be worried about McCain's ability to judge being that he is 72 years old? Being that he is a year older than Collin Powell?

Obama's character is what's in question. Hanging with a domestic terrorist and his less than patriotic past is not the best choice in these "times".

manny wrote:

troublezone wrote:

Quote :

Maybe not but McCain's people courted him, he has been worked for 3 Republican Presidents, also he served as United States National Advisor from 1987-1989, Chairman Joints Chief of Staff 1989-1993, and United States Secretary 2001-2005, a Vietnam decorated war vet, if you don't trust his judgement and he is wrong, after all he did outright say that Palin is not qualified and he trust Obama's leadership , than he who's judgement do you trust? If Reagan, Bush sr and W Bush trust his judgement where they wrong for putting him in that postion? if they were wrong why did McCain try to court him?

He's getting older and possibly less sharp. It's known to happen... even to the best of 'em.

Using that logic than should be worried about McCain's ability to judge being that he is 72 years old? Being that he is a year older than Collin Powell?

Everyone's different. Mccain's been through a lot and still sounds pretty logical to me. He isn't my first choice...Ron Paul was.

I'm not a huge supporter of Obama, though I will probably vote for him. The Bill Ayres thing is ridiculous at this point. I find it funny how the extreme right has known about this like FOREVER, but they brought the story to light 4-5 weeks prior to the election. It's a total act of desperation, which is pretty sad. Those who aren't apart of the base on the right don't want to hear about this for numerous reasons, but for the most part because this country is at about rock bottom as you can get. They want to hear issues.

I'm not going to rip on McCain for his choice in Palin, because I'm sure it was out of his hands. The base made this decision in light of a lot of pissed off Hillary Clinton supporters. I was actually leaning towards McCain before his choice of Palin, because I was sick of everyone treating Obama like he is the Messiah or the 2nd coming. I was really turned off to all the hype. If McCain would have just gone with someone like Mit Romney, I would've most likely voted Republican. I have nothing against Ms. Palin, but she really has displayed her shortcomings when it comes to the issues, and the history of the Vice Presidency and what their role is. I have faith in McCain, but I don't have faith in his health as a 72 year old. I'm not about to put my faith in a party that has Ms. Palin as 2nd in command.

troublezone wrote:

Obama's character is what's in question. Hanging with domestic terrorists and his known less than patriotic past is not the best choice in these "times".

William Ayers, the weatherman, a group of pot smoking hippies who at the time hated the goverment due to America's involvement in the Vietnam war, these group of morons than bombed federal buildings and promptly got themselves imprisoned. Obama has condemed their actions hundreds of times.

When Ayers and Obama met, Ayers was a college professor and they served on Woods Funds for Chicago an non profit organzation involved in school board issues, headed by Republican and Ronald Reagan's friend Deborah Leff. By then Ayers like alot of his generation was a yuppie no longer the bomb throwing hippie of the sixties.

If Obama really hung out with terriost, than by having Collin Powell endorse him, that would suggest that Collin Powell is commiting treason to a country he has fought and defended his entire adult life, Ayers is college professor who left that life behind years ago. No one cares about Ayers anyway, if McCain wants to win he should than talk about the issues, the economic crisis, Iraq war, jobless rate, not some 60 year old hippie professor and crimes that took place almost 40 years ago.

Olafsto wrote:

You need to take a trip abroad to widen your horizon my friend!!!!
Maybe we are misunderstanding eachother. As I tried to make clear, a social democrat is not a sosialist.

Well, I'm up to being corrected on the terms, but Socialism is
"ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of
capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

Quote :

We have a number of political parties in Norway, actually one of
the largest ones is a right wing party much like your own republican
party.
If they win, they are in office for four years.
We have total political and religious freedom here.

That's fine, but do you have economic freedom? If you earn a dollar,
how much of it is confiscated by the government? Are there limitations
of what you can or cannot buy with what you are left with?

Quote :

You sound like a smart man TT, but calling us slaves, shows a level of ignorance beyond belief.
Your next vacation should definitely be Europe..

I'd love to go, but I suspect I would find a lot less economic freedom
than we have here in America (although we are well on our way here).