Nirvana

I was hugely into grunge in the 90s. In elementary school our favorite bands were Nirvana, Alice In Chains, and Pearl Jam

91 - 96
used to listen: nirvana, pearl jam, alice in chains, soundgarden (91, 94. 96), therapy (if we can call them - grunge)

rattpoison wrote:

metalinmyveins wrote:

I agree with what you stated regarding Grunge, and how it addressed the awkwardness of growing up as a youth...That was the problem with grunge, it just didn't know how to move beyond certain subject matter. Everything was doom & gloom (and revolving around the same subject matter).

The bands/artists that were left grew with their audience, take a look at Pearl Jam's ever popular career since. Alot of their fans must be in their 30's by now. They sing about all manner of things.

The thing is there were only 4 big bands (you know 'em) that were successful, only 1 is left (AIC doesn't really count) so that is why it was only a time/place kind of phenomenon. I didn't continue because no one was left not because it couldn't remove itself from certain subject matter.

Grunge was far from one dimensional to begin with anyway musically and lyrically.

Pearl Jam is an anomaly. There is always some band which survives the death of a music scene. I've always enjoyed Pearl Jam. I have all of their CD's. I also have all of Nirvana's C.D's, Soundgarden's and S.T.P., but I will say it again, I realized long ago the limitations of this music scene.

Pearl Jam never helped the growth of grunge either. When "VS" came out they shunned the video industry (which makes it harder to promote one's band). Then compound it with the fact that they took on Ticketmaster because they were monopolizing the industry. I think it was admirable that they addressed the Ticket Master situation and decided not to play in any Ticket Master venues, but all they did in the end was alienate a budding fanbase. This was bad, because the places Pearl Jam ended up playing were usually really small (which sold out quickly during their hey day), and one had to travel way out of the way to get there. It was basically an arena band playing in clubs.

I totally disagree with the music not being for the most part one dimensional. This was a scene that for the most part said we're not going to solo. Right there, you're creating limitations within a music scene. The scene ushered in way too many average guitarists. I'll tell you one group of people that probably lost their jobs in the U.S in the 90's...Guitar teachers. Kids everywhere were probably saying something to the extent.."You mean I can hide all my flaws by using distortion, and not having to worry about playing clea? Well, then sign me up!"

Lyrically it was CYNICISM, CYNICISM, CYNICISM... People finally opened up their eyes to what was being written about during the grunge scene. The Clinton years were productive years in the United States, which essentially discredited a lot of what grunge was trying to preach. The "Look how bad my life/and our existance is" theme wore itself out. Nobody was buying it anymore. Read the book "Heavier Than Heaven" about Kurt Cobain's life. Kurt would like people to think that he had the worst childhood in the world, but this couldn't be further from the truth. He was a by-product of divorce, but join the crowd on this one. People who surrounded Kurt when he was growing up felt like Kurt embellished much of his childhood. It's truly an eye opener.

Metal I have to go with Rattpoison on this one I do not think that either musicially or lyrically they were one dimensional. I think that alot of the subject matter that the bands were tagged with this label were of a darker nature, but also IMO dealt with real human experiences and emotions. They spoke of feeling gloomy but they also spoke of human fraility and I don't believe the lyrics of most of the artist that came from this scene were filled cynicism. Since kurt Cobain seems to be one of the artist we keep speaking of, IMO his lyrics to me didn't express cynicism, more of detached amusement at times.

How he grow up and that he might exaggrated or embellished much of his experiences does not surprise me. Artist always use their lives as a source of material and often blow up to actual circumstances to make themselves and songs become bigger than life.

So what are you saying Metal, that just because some grunge guitarists didn't solo (Which most of them did, by the way) that makes them average guitarists? Who determines what a 'good' guitar player is? I can guarantee that Kurt Cobain or Jerry Cantrell would still be excellent players even if they didn't use distortion.

And just because the economy and stuff was prospering during the 90s, you're saying that everyone was happy? There will always be personal conflicts that can lead a person to depression no matter how things are going in the big picture.

Schbopo wrote:

So what are you saying Metal, that just because some grunge guitarists didn't solo (Which most of them did, by the way) that makes them average guitarists? Who determines what a 'good' guitar player is? I can guarantee that Kurt Cobain or Jerry Cantrell would still be excellent players even if they didn't use distortion.

And just because the economy and stuff was prospering during the 90s, you're saying that everyone was happy? There will always be personal conflicts that can lead a person to depression no matter how things are going in the big picture.

I don't really consider Jerry Cantrell/Alice In Chains a Grunge band, like many don't. They started off as a metal act by playing on the Clash of the Titans tour, and when metal took a back seat, Alice In Chains was all of a sudden a Grunge band. As far as Cobain goes, I think he was talented, but his legacy was a by-product of dying young. Unlike most musicians, he never had a chance to fall on his face, so in many people's eyes; he could never do any wrong. There never was that "Ishtar" of Nirvana albums for people to knock, so people only saw this guy in a positive light.

I knew Kurt's legacy got out of control shortly after his suicide, when there were teens who committed suicide because Kurt took his own life (more than a few cases regarding this). It was as if Kurt was their savior. I didn't think things could get any stranger, until you started getting wind of all the huge Nirvana fans (with extra chromosomes) that came up with the looney idea that Courtney actually killed Kurt, and that this was all a conspiracy. They even produced a documentary about this (LOL)!This wasn't a small group of people either. Then after "Celebrity Skin" came out, Courtney supposedly was still ripping off riffs from Kurt that he wrote. It was hard to take the Kurt lovers seriously after this, and it changed my overall perception of the man. His fans did more detriment to his legacy than Kurt ever did, and he was the one that committed suicide.

When I talked about the 90's, I didn't talk about it from just Kurt/Nirvana's perspective, but from grunge as a whole. The scene tried to paint the 90's as a real down time for America. NOTHING could be further from the truth. This is why I always laugh at groups like Rage Against the Machine. They're so anti-establishment, and yet, I wonder what they had to complain about in the 90's. There was never a more prosperous decade, we weren't involved in any wars (during the Clinton administration), the United States was for the most part reverred around the world, etc... I'm not surprised they've gotten back together, since this decade tends to be 180 degree difference from what was the 90's.

Psst. Manny, are we winning?

Schbopo, no offense, but you were 1-2 years of age at the time when Nirvana/grunge scene took off. Anything Manny has to state, I will take with a little more grain of salt. I was 20 years old when this scene took off. You've at best known people who were a part of it, or read about it. You never lived it...plain and simple. It would be like myself arguing with someone who actually experienced the early 70's, while all I was doing was crapping my diapers, sucking on a pacifier, or stairing up at the thing floating above my crib. Unless you have a time machine, you just had to be there.

Yeah, well......shut up.
I've been defeated, Manny. Avenge me.

Metal I do agree that during the Clinton years we did propser economically, and if you are talking about the movement as whole you do make valid points.

The original big names of the Seattle scene Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Soundgarden and too a smaller extent Mother Love Bone were being marketed as metal bands.

I think the grunge scene exploded so big and so fast was due to metal and hard rock was becoming too formulaic, it had become to predictable and stale. I for one found Nirvana to be a breathe of fresh air. I couldn't relate to the silly lyrics of Poison and Motley Crue but I understood where Screaming Trees and Nirvana were coming from. I didnot stop listening to Motley Crue or any of the other pop/thrash, and classic metal bands I had liked, but it was nice to see music become an open book, which helped the music seem fresher. BTW I also think Faith No More deserve some credit for this also.

Cobain had no control over how his success would change the music industry.

I am fan of Rage Agaisnt the Machine but what makes me laugh about them is two things, one if they were really agaisnt the 'man" they would never signed to a major label, the second is that they politics is not only very leftist (even for my taste) but also very naive. I have read mostof the books that they have recommended and makes me wonder if they actually have and if they have did they misunderstand or misinterputed them.

manny wrote:

Metal I do agree that during the Clinton years we did propser economically, and if you are talking about the movement as whole you do make valid points.

The original big names of the Seattle scene Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Soundgarden and too a smaller extent Mother Love Bone were being marketed as metal bands.

I think the grunge scene exploded so big and so fast was due to metal and hard rock was becoming too formulaic, it had become to predictable and stale. I for one found Nirvana to be a breathe of fresh air. I couldn't relate to the silly lyrics of Poison and Motley Crue but I understood where Screaming Trees and Nirvana were coming from. I didnot stop listening to Motley Crue or any of the other pop/thrash, and classic metal bands I had liked, but it was nice to see music become an open book, which helped the music seem fresher. BTW I also think Faith No More deserve some credit for this also.

Cobain had no control over how his success would change the music industry.

I am fan of Rage Agaisnt the Machine but what makes me laugh about them is two things, one if they were really agaisnt the 'man" they would never signed to a major label, the second is that they politics is not only very leftist (even for my taste) but also very naive. I have read mostof the books that they have recommended and makes me wonder if they actually have and if they have did they misunderstand or misinterputed them.

Manny, I actually didn't have a problem with the scene in the beginning. I was already a Soundgarden & Alice In Chains fan. To me they were metal bands, so whatever. I liked the dynamic that Pearl Jam brought to the scene, and then to a lesser extent I liked Nirvana. I'm not real big on trendy albums, so "Nevermind" was kind of hit or miss with me. I thought for a grunge band, that was way too polished of a record. Give me "Bleach" or "Incesticide" any day, or even later "Inutero".

Then you had those 2nd tier bands like the Screaming Trees, Mudhoney, and the Melvins which I liked to an extent. One of my favorite movies of all time is the movie "Singles". I think Cameron Crowe captured the Seattle scene brilliantly. I just think that the scene failed to expound on their sound, and more or less the bands were responsible for killing that scene just like glam bands.

Record labels are good at doing that, after Quiet Riot hit it big they signed every band in LA who carried guitars and can of Aquanet. When Metallica hit it big they signed every thrash band, and so on, they help kill music scenes instead nurturing them.

Quote :

Then you had those 2nd tier bands like the Screaming Trees

I love Screaming Trees, especially Sweet Oblivion and Dust. Mark Lanegan has a unique voice in rock IMO.

You know, none of you guys are doing a real good job of avenging me.

There's probably a reason for that.

I was in Seattle in late 1992, by that point the scene had already been raped and bled dry by the record labels. The local musicians, clubs, etc couldn't wait for the scene to die so they could get on with their lives. About the time it was really "heating up" in the rest of the country it was already yesterday's news in Seattle.

The only "grunge" band that I think fell under the radar and should have gone farther was "Gruntruck" (formed by ex members of The Accused). I saw them live on several occasions and they kicked major ass.

Back to Nirvana...

People that blame Kurt, Nirvana or "grunge" in general for killing metal/hard rock seriously need to have their heads examined. The scene was burning itself out, just too much proliferation of mediocre bands getting signed and putting out records. Did some good bands get hurt in the process? Yes, some really good groups had their careers either altered or destroyed...but you can't blame the bands for that, blame the record labels.

Nirvana was never a favorite of mine (I was a Soundgarden nut), but I definitely admired their talent and Bleach is a GREAT record. Cobain wasn't a great singer/guitarist...but the guy WAS a great songwriter, if you can write great songs that speak to people it's a much larger accomplishment than how fast you can play a harmonic minor scale.

Pete Townsend has never been a technically great guitarist...but how many memorable songs/riffs did he write? How about Neil Young?

If Cobain hadn't taken his life he might have eventually ended up in the same company, as it stands he was a potentially great talent that couldn't handle the pressure of fame and did the old "better to burn out than fade away" cop out.

Well said detuned.

Personally, I'm pretty neutral on Nirvana's sound but I appreciate Cobain's songwriting. And I don't think Nirvana and grunge killed anything that wasn't already on the way out or deserved to die.

Several of my friends liked that "new" sound, but I never liked 'em. Not from day one. I'm sure they were talented musicians, but I don't like 'em at all.

looks like in a few years US will be fully in grunge bands

there are many stupid idiots who kill themselves after those idols death.
Alica in chains was almost first GRUNGE bands, before nirvana, but they released album little later.

+1 detuned

There is so so so so so much i could say about Nirvana and about Grunge all I am gonna say is this, Either you get it or you dont. Plain and simple

Kurt was talented. He was an artist, a songwriter and IMO highly intelligent, there are some theories going around that he could have been murdered. Some argue the heroin content in his system would have made it impossible but him being a user of it for years, I would think that his body probobly built some kind of resistance or something so to me that point about his heroin content is moot. There was even one guy who claimed Courtney offered him 50k to kill him. Of course this guy's body was found 3 days after that interview. Which to me was odd.

Kurt was no saviour, he just tapped into what alot of people were feeling, isolation, angst, as he felt these things himself.

If you want to read a good book on the man, I highly recommend Charles Cross' Heavier than Heaven. it was a good read and IMO probobly one of the most accurate books on his life. The one written by Azzlerod more or less is a crock as Kurt lied about alot of the stuff in there which he was prone to do. It'll paint Kurt in a diff light. Especially near the end.

I Hated Pearl Jam still do. Cannot stand them, AIC is alright definitly differant, wasnt much of a fan of Soundgarden either. It was Nirvana and STP for me, NOW I dont listen to Nirvana as often as I did. STP I still listen to all the time, its good stuff

i think we can agree he tapped into the zeitgeist at the time

I have to give props to manny, metalinmyveins, rattpoison, and detuned for one of the best threads I have ever read on this forum. And schbopo made me laugh. Peace.

the sentinel wrote:

And schbopo made me laugh. Peace.

Then my duty here is done.

Bumpin' the Nirvana thread cuz I just read this story on Blabbermouth and found it totally hilarious.

KURT COBAIN Raps, Sings BON JOVI Song In 'Guitar Hero 5' - Sep. 3, 2009

The Pulse of Radio reports: Not only has late NIRVANA frontman Kurt Cobain made it into Guitar Hero 5 as a playable character, as previously reported, but apparently you can make his avatar play guitar right-handed and sing BON JOVI's "You Give Love A Bad Name", along with songs from MEGADETH, PUBLIC ENEMY and NIRVANA wannabes BUSH (see video below). A "highlight reel" of what you can do with the Cobain character in Career Mode was posted online Tuesday (September 1), the same day that the game arrived in stores. In addition to the Cobain avatar, the NIRVANA songs "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and "Lithium" appear in a Guitar Hero game for the first time. Cobain's widow, Courtney Love, played a major role in putting Cobain's image together for the game, Activision's Vice President of Music Affairs Tim Riley told RollingStone.com. It is not clear whether Love had any opinion on what the unlockable Cobain character could perform, or just took the money and ran.

Love that last paragraph... um, yeah, I'd say that Courtney pretty much took the money and ran.

Poor Kurt. If he knew about this he'd probably be doing about 50,000 RPM in his grave right now.

I'm gonna bump the Nirvana thread because I am becoming a fan...

Over the last few years, in my late 30s, I have sort of "discovered" Nirvana for myself (not having it on the radio every other song) with Unplugged In NY mainly. I think that is just a brilliant performance.

When Nevermind came out, I was in Oracle and heavily in to Metal, Thrash and Progressive stuff. I actually liked "Smells Like Teen Spirit" when I first heard it. But then something snapped and I developed an intense dislike for the entire 90s Rock Scene. I hated Nirvana right alongside Green Day, Offspring, Seven Mary Three, Bush, The Nixons and Limp Bizkit. Mostly on principle...I was into what was into and was kinda snobby about it...haha! "Simple" stuff like the bands I hated were unsophisiticated, boring, sloppy, etc...basically, I was of the mindset at the time that if you weren't Dream Theater or Queensryche or Iron Maiden, you sucked.

Anyway, I still hate all the other bands on my above hate list EXCEPT Nirvana. What happened? Damned if I know. I began to develop an appreciation for raw, unsophisitcated music I guess. When I hear Nirvana now, I hear songs written by an artist of nearly genius level, at least in terms of expressing his own feelings. He was a sloppy guitar player, he was not a good singer necessarily, but he knew how to say what he felt and write simple, barebones songs that stick in your head...or in mine, at least.

At my age (nearly 39) I hear reality, honesty, pain, and anger. The same thing I hear in some of my other favorite music of all time (The Beatles, King's X, U2). It's all those things, it's rough around the edges, it's got hooks and I really, really like it. It took 20 years, but it's a breath of fresh air.

I just picked up the 20th Anniversary Edition of Bleach (this being the first time I have ever heard the entire record) and I love it. This really is a brilliant Rock album. I'm kind of glad it took this long for Nirvana to come alive for me. The music hits me a different way than I think it would have when I was 19/20 years old.