Nirvana

Headbanger's Ball was always sort of mislabeled. I mean, they played Enuff Znuff on the damn show! Haha.

Quote :

Yep, I think the first time I saw the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" video it was MTV's "Headbanger's Ball." Early stuff by a lot of what later would be called "grunge" bands (i.e. Alice In Chains, Nirvana, Soundgarden, L7, etc.) -- all got played on Headbanger's Ball back then.

I consider AIC metal.

All of those bands Alice In Chains, Soundgarden, Nirvana, and Mother Love Bone were all market as metal bands on MTV and print media such as RIP, that all change when metal was suddenly considered "uncool"

troublezone wrote:

I consider AIC metal.

Me too. There's really not that much of a difference between grunge and metal.

I liked them in principle, but like so many mega bands that get played to death on the radio, not in practice (Bleach is the only one I listen to). I do love Alt metal though, and even the Grunge influenced corner of Nu-metal I'm discovering.

I don't consider AIC metal. Never have. Most of the so-called grunge bands were just heavy alt-rock. Call it alt-metal if you must, but I have no issues calling them alt-rock.

Watched a DVD of making of Nirvana's " Nevermind" which I found insightful, especially Cobain's love of the Beatles, but that should not have surprised me since alot of Nirvana songs had some great hooks.

Made me respect Kurt Cobain's songwriting talents even more so than I did before.

Dont really care for them on the whole, they have a few songs that are ok, but thats about all I like from them.

After all of these years, I'm still not sure how I feel about Nirvana? I think like many, I liked what I heard in "Smells Like Teen Spirit" when it debuted in the fall of 1991. The negative side of things was how MTV, radio, and the listening audience turned their collective ears on that of heavy metal afterwards. Metal was all of a sudden deemed stupid/silly/contrived. From afar, it reminds me of the transition that took place in the 60's from doo-wop to flower power songs. There was another counter culture movement taking place, but instead of it being San Francisco in the 60's, it was now centered in Seattle.

Do I blame Nirvana on the sudden change of the music landscape? No, because if it wouldn't have been them, that honor probably would've been bestowed upon the likes of Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, STP, etc... What I did like about Nirvana and many of these other bands that defined grunge/alt rock were the catchy riffs/hooks, but at the same time, I hated the whiney attitudes and cynicism that were a standard among these bands.

Those bands wanted to paint the late 80's & early 90's as such a black or a bleak period, when those sentiments couldn't be further from the truth. The 80's (which I loved) had one of the biggest disparities among the social classes, which was not true of the 90's. Living in the 80's, we were dealing with the "Cold War". In the 90's the "Cold War" was a thing of the past, along with the fall of USSR and that of the Berlin Wall. The 90's with some help from the decade before gave us the biggest economic boom of all time, and the middle class grew 10 fold because of it.

I guess I have a love/hate relationship with the grunge/alternative rock movement. I think groups from the 80's were actually painting an accurate picture of what was really going on in the world, where is, I felt like the grunge/alternative rock movement was embellishing what had been going on two years prior to its coming into existance and the subsequent years that followed.

Getting back to Nirvana, my eyes were opened up after reading the book "Heavier Than Heaven" (Biography of Kurt Cobain). It basically paints Kurt Cobain as a guy who liked to embellish his so called negative life while growing up in western Washington, while others who grew up with him or around him saw things totally different. Kurt was a by-product of divorce, but join the crowd on that one Kurt.

Though I believe Kurt/Nirvana to be a talented group, I think the pendulum praise swung far too much their way. The suicide of Kurt Cobain only perpetuated this myth further. Cobain had somehow all of a sudden gained Lennon like iconic status, and this point was driven home to me after reading a Kerrang magazine in the late 90's, which listed the Top 100 Heavy Metal/Hard Rock guitarists of all time. Kurt somehow got into the top 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely blasphemous.

metalinmyveins wrote:

Cobain had somehow all of a sudden gained Lennon like iconic status...

And very justified.

Eyesore wrote:

metalinmyveins wrote:

Cobain had somehow all of a sudden gained Lennon like iconic status...

And very justified.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this assertion. Lennon had nearly two decades of songs under his belt, and was someone who reached people way beyond that of music. Whether you liked his politics or not, Lennon was such an ideological threat here in the United States, that the FBI and the CIA actually followed his every move. Cobain never broached the area of politics at all, probably due to his lack of education. People will state that because his lyrics were so out there, that he was a genius. I think just like everything else he and Nirvana did, it's the hype machine going to work again.

Good band, important part of that scene, but overhyped.

Metal, I enjoyed your post and reading what your point of view on Nirvana and the grunge movement in general.

I do think that metal, at least the metal that was being marketed at the time was becoming to formualic, you had to have your anthem, your 12 bar solo, and of course your ballad, on the heavier side of metal, you had lots of band that were trying to amulate the big 4,and the record companies liked it that way because it is easier to market than say a band like King's X that were not at all like those two extremes.

I can only speak for myself, but when Nirvana's "Nevermind" was released it was a breathe of fresh air, it was loud but poppy at the same time. It had hooks and Cobain was able to tap into an emotional angst that was real, no matter what the actual circumstances of his life were, his art was very real.

Also it is good to remember that when all these Seattle bands started releasing albums they were marketed as metal bands. Alice In Chains opened the Clash of the Titans tour and Soundgarden opened for Guns n Roses for example. It wasn't til the term metal became uncool did they get labeled alternative rock.

Also all or almost all these bands were influenced by old school metal veterans such as Black Sabbath and combined with punk/hardcore and indie rock influences. Thanks to a lot of these bands I discovered a lot of great bands that are not metal bands, and opened my ears to different sounds and music that was being ignored.

I personally didnot sell any of metal bands down the river, I have never believed if you like a certain genre or band you shouldn't like or be embraced to like another.

Cobain does deserve iconic status the same reason Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon, and Bon Scott to just name a few do. Their music touched people, moved them, and prompted an emotional response to his music.

Nirvana is always going to be a band where fans will be forever debating their music, influence and place in rock history, to that I say just turn it up louder and enjoy.

manny wrote:

Metal, I enjoyed your post and reading what your point of view on Nirvana and the grunge movement in general.

I do think that metal, at least the metal that was being marketed at the time was becoming to formualic, you had to have your anthem, your 12 bar solo, and of course your ballad, on the heavier side of metal, you had lots of band that were trying to amulate the big 4,and the record companies liked it that way because it is easier to market than say a band like King's X that were not at all like those two extremes.

I can only speak for myself, but when Nirvana's "Nevermind" was released it was a breathe of fresh air, it was loud but poppy at the same time. It had hooks and Cobain was able to tap into an emotional angst that was real, no matter what the actual circumstances of his life were, his art was very real.

Also it is good to remember that when all these Seattle bands started releasing albums they were marketed as metal bands. Alice In Chains opened the Clash of the Titans tour and Soundgarden opened for Guns n Roses for example. It wasn't til the term metal became uncool did they get labeled alternative rock.

Also all or almost all these bands were influenced by old school metal veterans such as Black Sabbath and combined with punk/hardcore and indie rock influences. Thanks to a lot of these bands I discovered a lot of great bands that are not metal bands, and opened my ears to different sounds and music that was being ignored.

I personally didnot sell any of metal bands down the river, I have never believed if you like a certain genre or band you shouldn't like or be embraced to like another.

Cobain does deserve iconic status the same reason Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon, and Bon Scott to just name a few do. Their music touched people, moved them, and prompted an emotional response to his music.

Nirvana is always going to be a band where fans will be forever debating their music, influence and place in rock history, to that I say just turn it up louder and enjoy.

I agree, that the metal scene was getting to formulaic. I think it was to trendy to an extent, hair metal bands were a dime a dozen. To a degree it was a little ridiculous. All that being said, how is it that RAP/Hip-Hop is still the driving force in music today? It boggles my mind how a genre such as RAP thrives, when clearly, out of all the musical expressions, it is the most simplistic stuff out there.

I have to say this, even though people on here having been giving some crap to games such as Rock Band & Guitar Hero, I think having kids having a vested interest in some sort of instrument (because of one of these video games) is a big step in knocking rap off its pedestal.

After getting off the subject, I'll restate what I said previously, I think Nirvana was pretty important, I just don't think they were the "Be All, End All".

I totally agree with you on AIC, Soundgarden, and even STP. These bands were all marketed as Metal bands, until it wasn't cool to be a metal band. Soundgarden also played some shows on the Guns/Metallica tourn in the summer of 92. They split the third bill with "Faith No More". I saw STP open for Megadeth in 1993, so in retrospect, it seems funny that they were ever on the same bill as Megadeth.

I can agree to an extent with the Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison references, because they had such a short time in the musical spotlight, just like that of Kurt Cobain, but I disagree with the Lennon one. Lennon outlived him by some 13 years, and made his mark way beyond that of music. Cobain never stretched his arms beyond that of music, and was really one dimensional. I think to compare Lennon and Cobain, is way off the mark.

Metal never became 'uncool'. A few guys at MTV might have thought so and stopped talking about it, but the people who liked it continued to listen to it and play it. The focus merely shifted away for a while. Nirvana was different and talented, so it was no surprise when they got popular and the focus shifted to "alternative rock" which is a really dumb label: everything is an alternative to something else!

Schbopo wrote:

Metal never became 'uncool'. A few guys at MTV might have thought so and stopped talking about it, but the people who liked it continued to listen to it and play it. The focus merely shifted away for a while. Nirvana was different and talented, so it was no surprise when they got popular and the focus shifted to "alternative rock" which is a really dumb label: everything is an alternative to something else!

Well, considering you were 2 at the time, I would say that it would be pretty tough to judge whether metal was uncool or not. You had to be there, and to see what was going on first hand. I will state this, I do understand that there were many who jumped the on the Heavy Metal bandwagon sometime around 1987, when certain metal acts were finding their way onto top 40 radio stations. Does it matter to me that many of those people jumped ship 5 years later? Not at all...For the simple fact that these people were never true fans of that genre to begin with. To it's core audience, metal never became uncool, but record sales of metal acts in the 90's compared to the 80's speak volumes. When metal acts go from stadium/arenas back to club size venues, that also speaks volumes. Sad as it is to say, metal did become uncool.

What's been disappointing to an extent is that RAP/Hip Hop music has now been going strong on the airwaves for the better part of a decade and a half, and isn't really showing any signs of relinquishing it's reigns on America. Could it be that all of those who are responsible for getting rap played on the radio are still very much into that music? I would say yes to that, but it seems that RAP's success goes beyond that. It's now becoming a generational thing being handed down from parents to their children. If that can happen for something as simplistic as RAP music, why didn't that happen for Heavy Metal in the early 90's? It truly boggles my mind.

Well their are few (if any) artist that can compare to the impact John Lennon or any of the Beatles had on popular cultural in general. I am definitley not comparing Cobain to John Lennon or any of the others I mentioned. I was giving my reason why IMO Cobain is also an icon, but John Lennon cast a long shadow over our cultural not just rock.

Speaking of Lennon, whenever Butch Vig had to talk Kurt Cobain to do overdubs on the guitar tracks, he would always tell Cobain, this is the way John Lennon did it, and of course Cobain would then give in to Vig's overdub request.

Well, considering you were 2 at the time, I would say that it would be pretty tough to judge whether metal was uncool or not. You had to be there, and to see what was going on first hand. I will state this, I do understand that there were many who jumped the on the Heavy Metal bandwagon sometime around 1987, when certain metal acts were finding their way onto top 40 radio stations. Does it matter to me that many of those people jumped ship 5 years later? Not at all...For the simple fact that these people were never true fans of that genre to begin with. To it's core audience, metal never became uncool, but record sales of metal acts in the 90's compared to the 80's speak volumes. When metal acts go from stadium/arenas back to club size venues, that also speaks volumes. Sad as it is to say, metal did become uncool.

What's been disappointing to an extent is that RAP/Hip Hop music has now been going strong on the airwaves for the better part of a decade and a half, and isn't really showing any signs of relinquishing it's reigns on America. Could it be that all of those who are responsible for getting rap played on the radio are still very much into that music? I would say yes to that, but it seems that RAP's success goes beyond that. It's now becoming a generational thing being handed down from parents to their children. If that can happen for something as simplistic as RAP music, why didn't that happen for Heavy Metal in the early 90's? It truly boggles my mind.[/quote]

I can see where your coming from but metal bands career's go on and on, no matter how much an album sells or not, look at the careers of King Diamond, Venom and others that didn't sell in the millions but where able to sustain a career. While hip hop may sell more cds in the short run, you will find very few hip hop artist with long careers or like Uriah Heep keep going forever.

It is funny but I have to say you are right Rap has become a generational genre, where it is being handed down, but the artist in that genre (I know there are expections) donot seem to have staying power. Plus hip hop/rap is a producer's genre, it is cheaper to record and market it, instead of having to manage a band, send them on tour, deal with x of personalities, so it lot easier to sell singals than to market an album IMO, what do you think?

I agree, I don't think there is anything that is going to stop metal, I just think it's a damn shame that Metal didn't have a comeback so to speak after the grunge craze died. I think the fact that Pantera's "Far Beyond Driven" became a #1 record in 1994, might have been the single greatest feat in what was a grunge crazy nation. It shows that Metal acts could be sustainable. My question is, why couldn't more bands in the metal genre have capatilized on Pantera's success?

I can't say whether it's cheaper to produce a RAP record, considering all the royalties that these record companies have to pay out when a rapper borrows someone elses music LOL! I don' t have the answer unfortunately. But when you have an industry laden with everyone from athletes to celebrities involved in the RAP genre, then something is obviously wrong. If there is so much talent in RAP, why is it that pretty much everyone can do it???

You are probably right on maybe it isn't so cheap to produce a rap cd I
didn't think about sampling and royalties they have to pay.

Metal I guess despite its 40 year plus history and no matter how many
millions of cds it sells these bands are still viewed as underground
artist, think about Led Zeppelin, considered one of the founders of
heavy metal, for decades critics scorned them, main stream acceptance
was not forth coming and it was not til the last few years that critics
changed their tune about Led Zep.

The grammys which didn't even add a metal award category til the late
80's and the first award went to Jethro Tull !!!! Now they don't even
air the metal award.

The Rock n Roll Hall of Shame have not nominated or included metal and
metal related artist such as Judas Priest, Alice Cooper, Kiss, UFO,
Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, and list goes on.

The reason that record companies couldn't duplicate Pantera's success
is simple, the fans created that success not the record label.

Quote :

Speaking of Lennon, whenever Butch Vig had to talk Kurt Cobain to do overdubs on the guitar tracks, he would always tell Cobain, this is the way John Lennon did it, and of course Cobain would then give in to Vig's overdub request.

I saw that too, I thought that was really cool to watch

I had a few Import Interview CDs and Nirvana was always mislabeled as a Metal band, Kurt had said in one interview "We're not a metal band but we'd appeal to a metal audience" I thought that quote summed it up for me.

I saw that too, I thought that was really cool to watch

I had a few Import Interview CDs and Nirvana was always mislabeled as a Metal band, Kurt had said in one interview "We're not a metal band but we'd appeal to a metal audience" I thought that quote summed it up for me.[/quote]

That sums it up very well.

I like them. I'd have to say In Utero is my favorite.

xyz wrote:

I like them. I'd have to say In Utero is my favorite.

I'm not a hige fan, and In Utero is my fav as well.

Eyesore wrote:

I don't consider AIC metal. Never have. Most of the so-called grunge bands were just heavy alt-rock. Call it alt-metal if you must, but I have no issues calling them alt-rock.

You consider We Die Young, It Ain't Like That, Love Hate Love and Them Bones not metal? Those were a few examples that are definately "metal" but they were also "heavy rock" at times too.

My favorite is Bleach Id have to say