Why we are so anal about our music

Nightwish is so hotly debated between fans and fans, non-fans and fans, and old fans and current fans that I find it very tiring (I must admit I have been in those kind of discussions-just ask Spec ). Really I don't believe one side is more right or wrong than the other, it's all a matter of opinion anyway. I just wish those who don't like Nightwish would just not listen and those who like them just listen. The debate over this band seems to have no end in sight until both parties agree to do this. Oh, well, as the old saying goes, "whatever will be will be".

I only replied re: NW so I could maybe help flesh it out a bit as an example, not so it would be the yardstick of the thread and discussion. I hope it doesn't turn that way and derail everything... not that we're all much on topic...whatever the topic may be exactly...

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

It seems more that because you feel there are better tracks now "in your eyes", that you can completely ignore anything I said - which has $$$$$$$$$$$ evidence to back it up..by the way - regarding some of the contributing factors to popularity. It's all in my post. You misreading or totally ignoring something I said doesn't suddenly make it not there or make you right about something I said or didn't say. I said there are typically two ways things that are traditionally underground in this music get noticed in a wide mainstream arena. Nightwish roughly fits the first way. How you could possibly tell me a lot of songs from the recent albums are not decidedly FAR more "American" in style than the ones from the debut up to 'Over the Hills' is baffling.

Far more American? I disagree completely. The only thing FAR more American is their fan base. Very simple, in fact. Actually, I'll concede that the vocals have changed.

And I'm not misreading or ignoring anything; I'm telling you I think you're wrong.

I would say it's vocals, guitar approach including the presence of, and song arrangements. Examples: Where is a sludgy breakdown present on 'Wishmaster'? Which previous album has a large ratio of no leads VS leads as opposed to the opposite? The rhythm approach changed from melodic lines and power chords to starting half a bar and 'grooving' on the lower strings, with little to no keyboard melody on top of it. The guitar used to be mixed evenly and even slightly lower than the keys and orchestration (listen to when the riffing is by itself in 'Passion and the Opera' for one good example, or when the keys cut out near the beginning of 'She Is My Sin' and it's just the guitar and rhythm section), but more recently are almost the loudest thing in the mix, yet serve much less of a purpose. The downtuned 'groove' approach is FAR more popular and well received in the US than the layered melodic or power metal approach. That's one reason why Symphony X has such an audience here that most of their contempararies do not, they have enough of that approach in the guitar that more people are attracted to the "heaviness", yet they will also have select melodic sections and small groups of both sects tend to be pleased (don't take this as saying they do this for sales..it's just an observation on what people get into). Disturbed. BLS. The smash by Pantera, 'Walk', huge example. A lot of the classic thrash band comebacks take this approach. Newer Exodus, Overkill. For one reason or another, people here eat it up like candy, and the $$$$ backs up that fact. It is drastically different than the approach on 'Angels' through 'Over the Hills', and that's only the guitar aspect of it. Again..........can any of the above be refuted?

Song structures. The first argument that will be made against this claim is that there are 'epics' present on the newer albums. This holds no water because anyone can figure out that length does not complicate a song, but structure and dynamic. Take 'Gethsemane', in 3 minutes less than 'Creek Mary's Blood' in duration, you will hear: the snare alternating from downbeat to upbeat every section of verse, the apparent chorus occuring only twice before an extended instrumental bridge leading to a complete cut-off of the band, followed by a return to the vocals only in another bridge section format, never referring back to the verses or choruses in the first half of the song, and ending with a melodic solo. 'Creek Mary's' is a drawn out verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure with a short solo that merely reprises the chorus melody. This is just one example. Does it make that song necessarily BAD? NO, but AGAIN, to deny the difference in approach to songwriting now is huge is just mind boggling to me. Again that's only one example. I know the songs, like most of what I collect, inside and out and backwards. I could go on for hours like this about any of those bands. The FACT is that how the music is NOW for this particular band is MUCH MORE appealing than it was when it was more firmly entrenched in the melodic power metal vein.

People defend "their" music vehemently at times because we hold it near and dear in our hearts and minds. It reminds us all of both good and bad times in our lives; it is imbued with feeling and emotion that arouse our sensibilities and provide the soundtrack to our own unique experiences that make up the moments of our lives.

Yes! You're exactly right Sentinel. It does mean so much, it means the world. Not just metal but the feelings that music itself, and more potently, metal bring out in us. Haha, the bartender where I work asked me last night: You must like rock n roll right? All you wear are those shirts. "Ummm (so as to avoid a five hour speech)... a good bit yeah." Every shirt is a memory, every album a snap shot.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

Again..........can any of the above be refuted?

Yes. Sounds like someone upset that a band he likes has a lot of fans so he's attributing this to all sorts of nonsensical, irrelevant things.

I asked to get an answer if there is one. There isn't, and you cannot give any. Are you going to listen to the mere examples I pointed out and say "that didn't happen there", "that isn't that", etc? Go ahead..

BTW, bands I like that have "a lot" of fans:


Iron Maiden
Helloween
Kamelot
Megadeth
Pink Floyd
Nile
Queensrÿche
The Mars Volta
Zao
Rhapsody

I'm fairly certain there are quite a few million records sold between all those.

All kinds of teenies dig Kamelot. I have certain ideas of the reasonings, but they are more a matter of interpretation than the actual qualities of the music. For example Nile and most brutal death gets boatloads of fans off the bat because it's br000talz and soooo heavy. Which it is, but that's not the be-all-end-all of it, and those things in themselves are not inane and not horrible musical ideas. The kind of junk NW polluted their stuff with is. The grooving and plodding structures that go nowhere and the watering the vocals down. That isn't the same thing, that isn't a matter of perception the way it is with Nile or Kamelot who have casual or mainstream fans. There's no feces to be attracted to there, they just think there is. With NW there is. It has nothing to do with how many fans they have, but the WHY's and HOW's. I already said this. Again, refute it, please, if you want to twist around everything, don't just say "yes" "no" and so forth...

Why are we so musical with our anus??

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Why are we so musical with our anus??

i can't speak for everyone, but i just ate a beef & bean burrito & drank a beer.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I asked to get an answer if there is one. There isn't, and you cannot give any. Are you going to listen to the mere examples I pointed out and say "that didn't happen there", "that isn't that", etc? Go ahead..

BTW, bands I like that have "a lot" of fans:


Iron Maiden
Helloween
Kamelot
Megadeth
Pink Floyd
Nile
Queensrÿche
The Mars Volta
Zao
Rhapsody

I'm fairly certain there are quite a few million records sold between all those.

All kinds of teenies dig Kamelot. I have certain ideas of the reasonings, but they are more a matter of interpretation than the actual qualities of the music. For example Nile and most brutal death gets boatloads of fans off the bat because it's br000talz and soooo heavy. Which it is, but that's not the be-all-end-all of it, and those things in themselves are not inane and not horrible musical ideas. The kind of junk NW polluted their stuff with is. The grooving and plodding structures that go nowhere and the watering the vocals down. That isn't the same thing, that isn't a matter of perception the way it is with Nile or Kamelot who have casual or mainstream fans. There's no feces to be attracted to there, they just think there is. With NW there is. It has nothing to do with how many fans they have, but the WHY's and HOW's. I already said this. Again, refute it, please, if you want to twist around everything, don't just say "yes" "no" and so forth...

Are you the Bill O'Reilly of the forum now? Long-winded posts don't convince me of anything. When Nightwish no longer sounds like Nightwish, I'll agree with you. But you're not going to convince me that the tone of a guitar somehow equates to success. It's nonsense.

LOL

LOL




You're ALMOST at admitting you just plain don't bother to read anything of it because it happens to be long. Just say so, it's more respectable.

It's LONG because I'm trying to HAMMER IT INTO YOUR BRAIN that NO, it isn't just "about the tone" or the rest of the stuff you keep spouting off about. I've been EXTREMELY SPECIFIC with what I'm talking about. I didn't just up and say, "the vocals/guitars now sound like this, which means they sold out" -end-. I'm giving you ZERO ROOM to stand on by presenting you with a wholly detailed and logical point of view (because unlike some I respect conversation enough to actually CONTRIBUTE to it) and you keep finding new reasons to dodge it because you lost this quite a while back. First the reason I must be saying this is because I don't know the band well..debunked that. Second, your reason becomes that I'm just some simpleton who hates when bands get popular (proving an earlier prediction I had..BTW)...debunked that twice in a row. Now, the reason is that I'm just making up "long-winded" nonsense that ALL has to do with the guitar tone...funny since I never mentioned ANYTHING AT ALL about the TONE of the guitars in ANY post! LOL! I'm finished with this.

Quote :

When Nightwish no longer sounds like Nightwish, I'll agree with you.

Hey OCI, guess Eyesore must agree with you as this time is now upon us. Nightwish now sounds like a pompous, bloated version of Evanescence.

Dude, I respect those that created this forum enough to not be drawn into a silly flamewar with you. You can laugh all you want, and throw out the "I win because you don't want to argue with me" nonsense, but if you think you've won something here, your retardation runs deeper than I first thought.

I read all of what you wrote and I find it to be the words of a kid stretching his nonsense to justify his dislike of something. I never said what you wrote "all has to do with guitar tone"; I wrote that to point out how dumb your argument is. I don't care if you give twenty examples, it doesn't change my opinion that your assessment is skewed. Some men and women can find a million reasons a day to convince themselves that their boyfriend/girlfriend is cheating. It's how the human brain works. If you want to believe something, you'll find reasons to justify that belief no matter how ridiculous.

And I have plenty of room to stand on here; your words are farts in a tornado.

tohostudios wrote:

Quote :

When Nightwish no longer sounds like Nightwish, I'll agree with you.

Hey OCI, guess Eyesore must agree with you as this time is now upon us. Nightwish now sounds like a pompous, bloated version of Evanescence.

I like metal, if nobody else does or doesn't or whatever...well, who needs anybody else?

At my age I've only got two choices left:
1. Sit in a rocking chair with a ponytail, smoking joints and listening to Led Zeppelin.
2. Be a Poser (or even a poseur!) I'll take it.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I got into them in 2000 along with Sonata Arctica. My copy of Oceanborn is a gold Russian CD which includes 'Sleeping Sun' and it was the first one I bought. She was the focal point in some respects, and a portion of the fans certainly saw it that way as well, but the band at least used to have something to say musically so it wasn't completely revolving around the girl. Whether the cover image is public domain or not you can't really deny the hilarity of them using it. What I mentioned in terms of people gravitating to certain elements also does not include the cover to the album. I just threw that in because as I said, it's hilarious.

Overall, I do sort of think my opinions are going to start to be bulldozed on account of stigma, though, rather than what they really are..i.e. thread starter talks about 'posers'.. people are offended... I don't take either "side" but still criticize music to a degree.. I get lumped in, posts not read properly, and so on......

nevermind

Nightwish's first video...



You'll notice a man singing in that song as well. Did you see a male band member?

How on earth did this topic get so heated? People really need to stop getting their panties in a bunch becasue people diagree.

I happen to agree with OCI on this, and I also find that bands that are "in" suddenly change styles to cater for the "market". Nightwish are but 1 example.

kmorg wrote:

How on earth did this topic get so heated? People really need to stop getting their panties in a bunch becasue people diagree.

I happen to agree with OCI on this, and I also find that bands that are "in" suddenly change styles to cater for the "market". Nightwish are but 1 example.

Bah! This isn't heated. And I'm one that believes fans invent irrelevant things that have caused the band's success. They do this simply because it's no longer "their band."

Not saying that's the case here because Nightwish has changed a bit. I simply don't think those changes equated to their success. Nightwish have steadily gotten bigger and more popular as each album came out, and I don't think changes--or additions, rather--to their music was the cause. They were already getting big on Oceanborn, and Wishmaster made them huge in Europe. It wasn't until "Wish I Had An Angel" appeared on that Alone In The Dark soundtrack that they became big in the US. At that point, however, their fanbase was already pretty massive.

And I don't care, musically speaking, Dark Passion Play is hardly that far removed from Oceanborn. Vocally, sure, but not musically.

Quote :

And I don't care, musically speaking, Dark Passion Play is hardly that far removed from Oceanborn. Vocally, sure, but not musically.

I had a big refutation to this statement typed out but that's really for a different thread I think.

tohostudios wrote:

Quote :

And I don't care, musically speaking, Dark Passion Play is hardly that far removed from Oceanborn. Vocally, sure, but not musically.

I had a big refutation to this statement typed out but that's really for a different thread I think.

Wimp.

Nah, I just try not to be a threadjacker.