Farewell Charlton Heston

He did some of my favorite movies that pre-date my birth. For my part, I'll miss him (though he hasn't been relevent as an actor in ages).

DallasBlack wrote:

I'm sorry but this argument just doesn't hold water with me. A gun is an object, just that. It has no mind of it's own and is niether good or evil. Good and evil is something that applies to human beings and an evil human being is no less evil with a gun than he/she is without one.

Heroin is an object, just that. It has no mind of it own and is neither good or evil. I say that "illegal" drugs should not be regulated and be made available at the local Wal-Mart because a group of folks that invade a country and make it their own hundreds of years ago decide that it should be everyone's "God given" right to own heroin. But you gotta wait 3 days to get a fix of heroin. That logic is Sound as a pound.

SAXON1500 wrote:

Heston was a douche, and the world is better off without him.

And, Alex, I agree with you about the RESPONSIBLE, RESPECTFUL gun owners. But there must be a reason that this country leads the world in gun deaths by 1600%. Charlie boy wasn't just an advocate for "safe gun ownership", he wanted fully automatic weapons legalized, fought against waiting periods for permits (so the government could lookup the applicants background), protested the Free Speech of a certain rapper (which is pro-censorship, no matter how you want to look at it), etc.

And Michael Moore does not do any creative editing to make people look bad. They make themselves look bad without his help. Heston could have stood there and gave a reasonable response - or at least commented on that he felt bad about the young girl. Maybe he could have had a rebuttal about how a gun saved a woman from being raped, or something. But he ran away like a good little rat backed into a corner. He can only be bold when there are 100's of like-minded people cheering him on. Get him one on one, and he shows his truly pathetic colors.

It just amazes me that evil people live so long and good people die at early ages constantly.

Every time there is a gun death all everyone wants to do is make this or that new law. to be honest if the laws that are on the books were enforced things would be a lot better. Heston fought those things because waiting periods only affect those who abide by the law. People who obtain guns illegally dont do the waiting period thing and dont get their backgrounds checked. The gun deaths in this country are by far and away done by those who do not obey the law.

As for censorship - Heston was exercising his freedom of speech to point out that maybe killing cops and speaking about doing things of a perverse nature to the daughters of Al Gore was not a good thing. Perhaps all the Time Warner shareholders who demanded that that certain rapper no longer be able to represent their company are guilty of censorship? That rapper has every right to release his song - but he does not have the right to say if a company decides it is not in their best interest to release it his freedom of speech is being encroached on. There was no infringement on that rappers right to speak.

As for michael moore - the man is not about making balanced interviews. He clearly has an agenda and makes films to support his skewed viewpoint. If he was serious about getting Heston's views then ask for an interview. But then again michael moore knows nothing of common courtesy....

spectrefate wrote:

DallasBlack wrote:

I'm sorry but this argument just doesn't hold water with me. A gun is an object, just that. It has no mind of it's own and is niether good or evil. Good and evil is something that applies to human beings and an evil human being is no less evil with a gun than he/she is without one.

Heroin is an object, just that. It has no mind of it own and is neither good or evil. I say that "illegal" drugs should not be regulated and be made available at the local Wal-Mart because a group of folks that invade a country and make it their own hundreds of years ago decide that it should be everyone's "God given" right to own heroin. But you gotta wait 3 days to get a fix of heroin. That logic is Sound as a pound.

But people who use heroin alway abuse it. People can have guns and not go on a killing rampage. In fact most people don't shoot others with their own gun (unless in defence), people who use guns for the wrong reasons usually steal guns from others or buy them on the black market or on the street (just like heroin users). What happened to the Native Americans was wrong but it was (as you said) hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with this topic (besides our founding fathers didn't invade this country, the Europeans did so if anyone needs to be blamed then there is you culprit). Your analogy is just rediculous IMHO. Do you really think that if guns were unavailiable to the public that murder and guns would not be a problem? After all, using your analogy again, heroin is still a problem despite it not being availiable. If somebody wants to kill someone then a lack of a gun is not going to stop them. Gangs and criminals don't buy their guns at "Wal-Mart", most get them from foreign countries (smuggling) or steal them. Regular people who have guns creates quite a deterent, someone would think twice about breaking into a house or mugging a passerby if they thought they could get shot. Take away guns from responsible people and you make them a target for any scumbag who wants to take advantage of them.

I will say one more thing on the subject of Heston and I will let this matter rest. This is directed at those who call him evil. I believe evil is an overused term (like Conservative or Liberal). An evil person does things to inflict harm on others. They know that what they do will hurt somebody but they don't care. Heston, right or wrong believed that his support of gun ownership was the right thing. He believed it was best for this country for law abiding citizens to have guns. I figured that maybe the reason I don't understand your words about him was because I support gun rights and NRA's initiative to promote gun safety so I put myself in a similar situation:

I can't stand Jimmy Carter. I believe he was one of the worst presidents ever and that despite his humanitarian endevors his actions as an ex-president are discusting. The man causes more harm for America than good. He will attack the President while at the same time praising terrorist leaders. He meets with more 'evil' people than any public official there is. Despite all this I am unwilling to call him evil. Carter does and says the things he does because he honestly believes it is for the best. Right or wrong he believes what he does is best for America. He talks to our enemies because he honestly feels that he can change their minds. In all reality, like Heston, he does not equate to evil IMO. Irresponsible yes, perhaps even incompetent and totally off base but not evil. Your all entitled to your opinions, but I just think that evil is not an fully appropriate description.

Did not realize using the word "evil" would invoke such passion. Let me replace it with whatever term you would use to describe Koresh, Carter, or J Edgar Hoover.

And, Alex, although I disagree with most of your post, I appreciate the way you are always cool and intelligent in your responses.

SAXON1500 wrote:

Did not realize using the word "evil" would invoke such passion. Let me replace it with whatever term you would use to describe Koresh, Carter, or J Edgar Hoover.

Koresh-Psycho
Carter-Incompetent bafoon
J Edgar Hoover-cross dresser


Also it was just my opinion and I could be wrong (despite my bravado I'm not perfect ).

It just amazes me that psycho, cross-dressing, incompetent bafoons live so long and good people die at early ages constantly.

Quote :

Also it was just my opinion and I could be wrong (despite my bravado I'm not perfect

WELL, THANKS ALOT. Now I have to re-evaulate my entire lifes philosophies!!! Ya coulda told me before now!!!!

SAXON1500 wrote:

WELL, THANKS ALOT. Now I have to re-evaulate my entire lifes philosophies!!! Ya coulda told me before now!!!!

Your welcome.

Thought provoking responses Spec. But I can guarantee that those that disagree with you will not waver in the slightest. And what I am about to say goes for both sides of most political debate. With huge issues that affect all of us, human passion for their beliefs usually can push logic and common sense right out the window. That is why 99% of the time, talking about these issues on a board like this one, is just a waste of time - and can turn ugly quickly (can anyone spell CMR?). I am totally guilty of getting caught up in this stuff myself because of my personal passion.

But anyways - I will say "See ya later Chuck. I really did enjoy Soylent Green".

Good post Sax, it's true.

That's why you haven't heard me chime in about what I think!

I treasure what we have here and don't want to "CMR" it. There's tons here I just let go...let fly in the wind.

[quote="spectrefate"]

Quote :

But people who use heroin alway abuse it.

Not true. There are plenty of functioning drug addicts in the world that do not “abuse” the drug. If you call using regularly abuse, then I’m a Pepsi abuser. I admit it.

I still don't think the two equates but again you and me are on different sides of the argument.

Quote :

people who use guns for the wrong reasons usually steal guns from others or buy them on the black market or on the street (just like heroin users).

Did you hear this on Fox News? How about the hundreds of teenagers over the years that have killed family members or shot up their schools with the “family gun”?

I don't see what Fox News has to do with anything, I didn't accuse you of getting information from CNN. Also the parents were at fault for not keeping them in a secure place. With ownership comes responsibility.


It seems you are stereotyping heroin users as being strung out on the street buying guns from crack heads on the street. I think you would be surprised as to how many people in bands you listen to are heroin addicts. That crap messes you up, but it doesn’t make you an instant derelict.

I never accused heroin users for buying guns, my point is that heroin is illegal but is still readily availiable and if guns were illegal they too would be availiable.

Quote :

What happened to the Native Americans was wrong but it was (as you said) hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with this topic (besides our founding fathers didn't invade this country, the Europeans did so if anyone needs to be blamed then there is you culprit).

…and just like every other American afterwards, the sins of the founding fathers (hey, that was a pun) aren’t visited on the sons? I choose not to ignore genocide. The Jews rightfully do not, and I choose not to as well.

People today had nothing to do with what happened to the Native Americans and to blame a group of people who didn't commit the act is to me unfathomable (same thing with slavery). What can we do? Move to an uncharted island and give back America to the Native Americans? Hindsight is 20/20 and short of going back in time and eliminating the problem there is nothing that can be done about it. You can't ignor the past but you can't change it either. All you can do is learn from past mistakes and try to prevent them from happening again in the future. I think you misunderstand me sometimes, I just meant that what happened to them (as unfortunate as it was) has nothing to do with whether we should be allowed to have guns or not. Just my opinion.

Quote :

Do you really think that if guns were unavailiable to the public that murder and guns would not be a problem?

I said nothing like that. An epidemic like this doesn’t go away overnight. You have to crawl before you walk. Why just sit back and do nothing if you can’t eliminate a problem in one fell swoop?

I know you didn't but just I can see that you want guns out of the hands of people because you foresee a problem I don't think exists to the extreme that you do.

Quote :

If somebody wants to kill someone then a lack of a gun is not going to stop them.

I agree wholeheartedly. But why not try to make some of those instruments of death not so readily available to 12 year old Johnny who just listened to a Nightwish Marilyn Manson album and wants to take out his angst on his school full of bullies?

The only reason why 12 yr. old Johnny would be able to get a hold of the gun in the first place is because of the parents not doing their job which also can cause that stuff to happen in the first place not because they listened to a certain band. I was bullied in middle school (unmercifully and on a daily basis) but I never took my dad's gun from his room and shot anybody because a. my dad kept his guns secure and away from me and b. because my parents did their job right. Things like that can be prevented if parents and the schools pay better attention to what happens. Also don't think I didn't noticed the Nightwish cross out ( ).

Quote :

Gangs and criminals don't buy their guns at "Wal-Mart", most get them from foreign countries (smuggling) or steal them.

I’m not sure where you get these facts, but even if they are true, gangs and criminals can kill each other all day everyday for all I care. I care about the innocent people that are killed every month because of happy gun accidents in this country.

Preventing gun accidents and gun safety is exactly what groups like NRA advocate. With gun ownership comes a big responsibilty and instead of getting rid of guns, making sure that people who own them are able to bear that responsibility is something I'd advocate strongly.

Quote :

Regular people who have guns creates quite a deterent, someone would think twice about breaking into a house or mugging a passerby if they thought they could get shot. Take away guns from responsible people and you make them a target for any scumbag who wants to take advantage of them.

Quote :

I wil never have a gun in my house because I may just shoot someone in the heat of rage. Like a Jehovah’s Witness or something. I agree that guns can be a deterrent but I also think people in this country live in a constant environment of fear. There isn’t an unnamed boogeyman out there that is targeting your power metal collection. I would hate to live with the thought in the back of my head that someone has it out for me.

That is your choice and I will not argue with your reasoning which I think is sound and I compliment you on it. I on the other hand will have one and I will keep it because no matter how angry I've gotten I have never had the urge to kill somone (break a nose or a leg or something but not shoot or stab) and I don't forsee it happening. I will be very careful of where I keep it locked up and I will take every safety course I can think of to make sure I can handle it responsibly. When I have kids I will be the best parent I can be and make sure something like Colombine will never happen.

Well Spectrefate, I want to thank you for not making this too personal but it is obvious that we just don't see eye to eye on this subject (and others). This discussion could go on for eternity and I still wouldn't be able to change your mind and vice versa. We are both follwers of Christ and I believe we should try to find common ground and just agree to disagree (as Jesus would have us do) as to avoid any hostility. I hope you feel no ill will towards me from this as I feel none for you and let's just try to keep peace around here.

Fair enough, DB.

One day we'll arm wrestle it all out.

SAXON1500 wrote:

Thought provoking responses Spec. But I can guarantee that those that disagree with you will not waver in the slightest. And what I am about to say goes for both sides of most political debate. With huge issues that affect all of us, human passion for their beliefs usually can push logic and common sense right out the window. That is why 99% of the time, talking about these issues on a board like this one, is just a waste of time - and can turn ugly quickly (can anyone spell CMR?). I am totally guilty of getting caught up in this stuff myself because of my personal passion.

But anyways - I will say "See ya later Chuck. I really did enjoy Soylent Green".

I agree and for the life of me I don't know why I let this happen (I try to steer clear of these topics but as of late I tend to get too bold and forget my resolve). As you can see from my responce to Spectrefate I gave my last thoughts on it and will now step away from any further disscusion (Administrators, if I don't, feel free to delete my posts but I don't think I'll cause anymore problems). Maybe we should ban political disscussions here as well, just a thought.

Quote :

All you can do is learn from past mistakes and try to prevent them from happening again in the future.

Invading Iraq = we sure have learned the lessons of the past.

Quote :

We are both followers of Christ and I believe we should try to find common ground

I highly doubt Jesus would be toting semi-automatic weapons.


Just stirring the pot (mmmm...jackass stew. yum).

Anyone remember that Family Guy episode he was depicted in? Funny stuff.

Planet of the Apes? Anyone? Hello, check, check...is this thing on?

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Planet of the Apes? Anyone? Hello, check, check...is this thing on?

"I hate every ape I see, from Chimpan A to Chimpan Z
You'll never make a monkey out of me"

Fat Freddy wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Planet of the Apes? Anyone? Hello, check, check...is this thing on?

"I hate every ape I see, from Chimpan A to Chimpan Z
You'll never make a monkey out of me"

...Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius oh, oh, oh Dr. Zaius

SAXON1500 wrote:

I highly doubt Jesus would be toting semi-automatic weapons.

Well on Family Guy they had a preview for Passion Of The Christ II and he was using them there.

Quote :

Just stirring the pot

Keep stiring all you want, I've had my fill.

Wow, this thread has taken on a life of its own.