1970's American Heavy Metal...

Punk was punk. It was as spectrefate said, "anti-hard rock" or "anti-metal". Bands like the Sex Pistols, Dead Boys, The Damned etc. were never called "heavy metal" and were always labeled "punk".

Of course with the advent of thrash, metal and punk were combined.

Also, I know that the early punk scene had an impact on metal and hard rock. I remember reading an interview with Aerosmith in which Joe Perry stated that songs like Toys in the Attic and Bright Light Fright were inspired by the punk movement. Also, Phil Lynott was friends with the Sex Pistols and would even jam (and party) with them. So, while the two movements were different, there were some similarities and each influenced the other.

ultmetal wrote:

Also, I know that the early punk scene had an impact on...hard rock.

No doubt.

Joan Jett recorded her first demos with members of Sex Pistols. One of many examples of this.

spectrefate wrote:

I always thought the early punk stuff was to be anti-hard rock (or metal, if you will).

Punk was more of a statement against the over-produced, radio friendly "corporate rock" that ruled the airwaves in the late 70s.

Jello Biafra (of the Dead Kennedys) put it best: "The major labels were trying to force feed us Journey, and we responded with a musical flamethrower."

"...Swash-buckled heavy-metal..."

- David Mculloch (Sounds Music Magazine 1978)


So i'm using an Ultism here quoting music magazines from back in the day when getting his point across about Aerosmith and Ted Nugent being Heavy Metal in the 70's, but this isn't a description of Van Halen's new record it's actually part of a review on the Clash's 2nd LP the very heavy metallic Give 'Em Enough Rope. Alot of other music rags back in the day in reviews described the sounds of the Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Dead Boys, early Clash etc. as Heavy Metal just as they did Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Thin Lizzy etc.


To me AC/DC, Motorhead, Sex Pistols, The Runaways, The Saints, The Dictators, The Angels, The Ramones, Rose Tattoo, The Damned, The Dead Boys etc. were all doing the same thing in the mid to late 70's. 'Heavy Metal' sans the crap with an old simple rock n' roll influence running through, it's just that certain bands have became associated with certain scenes and genres. They all had the same approach and attitude towards music and what they liked and disliked. I mean AC/DC hated Led Zeppelin as much as the next punk (although they all secretly liked early Zeppelin before they became too inflated particuarly "Communication Breakdown").

It's a kind of twisted irony like Grunge, who as much as they boasted about hating Heavy Metal were really working away at fixing it and making their own metallic alloys.

There will never be a universal thought on what band is recognized with each genre of music. For instance, I would tend to lean towards Aerosmith being considered that of a Rock 'N Roll band, rather than that of what was early heavy metal. That being said, I can respect those who think otherwise.

I think one also has to look at those who have that established themselves in metal what are considered metal outfits today.

James Hetfield was a huge fan of Aerosmith, and supposedly had Joe Perry posters adorning his walls.

Kirk Hammett was/and still is a huge fan of U.F.O. who are riding the proverbial fence along with Aerosmith.

"Dimebag" Darrell & Vinnie Paul were huge fans of Van Halen, which is another band that people might label as a heavy metal outfit.

Scott Ian once stated that bands such as the Ventures, the Chantays, and Dick Dale were all early 60's instrumental groups that had influence on what is metal today. Funny enough all of those groups played the song pipeline (which was written by the Chantays). Am I saying that these bands should be considered metal bands? No, but clearly they influenced the likes of Anthrax and others.

I think much of it comes down to inspiration for the collective artists mentioned above, so even if those groups are riding the fence regarding their Rock/Metal status, I think we have to give some leeway regarding how people such as ourselves classify those groups. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers regarding those bands in question, but there's definitely a lot of of grey area.

I think it woud be interesting if either an anthropologist or a rock history teacher devoted his/her time to this question.

I'm sure you could have certain variables for those bands in question, such as:

1. How heavy was the sound?
2. How dark were the lyrics?
3. Who were the artists that influenced them?
4. What did the album cover designs look like?
5. What type of public image did they have?
6. How did they dress? What was their physical appearance like?
7.What cities did they originate from? Is there a propensity for metal groups to originate from a given area?
8. How did their albums sell, and what markets were the strongest?
9.Who did these bands tour with?
10. What type of media coverage, if any did they receive... (television)? 11. What magazine covers did they adorn, or what mags had articles on the groups in question?
12. Who have these groups been influenced by over the last 30 years?
13. If they originated in America, do they have a strong influence in Europe, which is laden with Heavy Metal fans?
14. Poll those who are knowlegeable about the scene and those who aren't.
15. What type of parafinalia did they sell?

It would be cool if some universtiy let some professor devote his time to try and answer some questions that people will still disagree with. Anyways...

Quote :

Rush always gets me into this argument.

For you youngsters out there, when Fly By Night and 2112 were released, Rush was considered heavy metal. The "hard rock" tag was used for bands like the Stones and the Prog tag was used for bands like Yes.

Rush, Aerosmith, AC/DC, etc, etc were considered metal back in the 70s.

Rush is a very good example. They were most certainly metal, at least at times.



I hate the revisionist thinking on this issue. AC/DC, Twisted Sister, Van Halen, Some Led Zep, Deep Purple, clearly early Sabbath (someone called their first one dark blues...that's fair), etc..that's all Heavy Metal.

Eyesore says - Metal is an umbrella. That's a good point.

Quote :

It's a kind of twisted irony like Grunge, who as much as they boasted about hating Heavy Metal were really working away at fixing it and making their own metallic alloys.

Boy, you've written some nonsense (In My Opinion ) but this is a good point! Nice phrasing as well.

ToB - you're too strict and legalistic with your definition of Metal. I know you fly the Metal Flag about as high and hard as anyone, but your definition is way too narrow. There's a place for light and happiness in Metal, I don't care what anyone says. By your definition, Temple Of Blood (the band) isn't Metal because you sing about He who is The Light, and not about the adversary who is darkness.


Hey guys!! This is a 4 page thread and everyone's been as cool as can be. Yay!!

Bands like Aerosmith, KISS, and BOC have songs that could be considered metal, but are not metal bands. "Same old song and dance", "Detroit Rock City",and "Cities on flame with rock and roll" are songs I consider to be metal, but much of their catologue is not. Van Halen is totally metal though

Schbopo wrote:

Bands like Aerosmith, KISS, and BOC have songs that could be considered metal, but are not metal bands. "Same old song and dance", "Detroit Rock City",and "Cities on flame with rock and roll" are songs I consider to be metal, but much of their catologue is not. Van Halen is totally metal though

Sorry. It's not a matter of opinion here. Bands like Ted Nugent, Kiss, Aerosmith were metal in the 70's. I can give you reviews, articles, quotes from the bands, bands of comparison, etc. etc. etc. It's history, not opinion. Chicago, Billy Joel, Elton John, Jackson Brown, Peter Frampton, Todd Rundgren, Janis Joplin, The Doors, The Eagles, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Pink Floyd, 10cc, Supertramp, Be Bop Deluxe, etc. These were example of "rock n roll" bands from 70's. Ted Nugent, Black Sabbath, Aerosmith, Judas Priest, UFO, Scorpions, Blue Oyster Cult are examples of heavy metal bands from the 1970's.

This is just one of those topics I am passionate about. I was there. I was a fan of it all. We were the fans. We called it heavy metal. We called it hard rock. The two were one in the same in the 70's. Granted bands like Aerosmith, Scorpions and Van Halen moved away from heavy metal in the 80's and 90's, but there is no denying their place in metal history.

Quote :

I hate the revisionist thinking on this issue. AC/DC, Twisted Sister, Van Halen, Some Led Zep, Deep Purple, clearly early Sabbath (someone called their first one dark blues...that's fair), etc..that's all Heavy Metal.

Bingo! Revisionist thinking is exactly what it is.

ultmetal wrote:

When I have 20-somethings emailing me that Saxon and Judas Priest
are "just hard rock", then something is wrong. Judas Priest defined the
freakin' genre.

Here is what I recently posted at another board regarding this:
What do you do with the many, many books on the history of heavy
metal that directly oppose what some of you say about the 70's American heavy
metal bands? I've recently read a few books on the history of metal and
non of them deny that bands like Van Halen were the forerunners of the
movement at the time. Books like the Heavy Metal Collector's Guide by
Martin Popoff lists bands like Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Mahogany Rush,
Angel, Led Zeppelin, UFO, etc. How about all the printed publications from the time
period? Do they lie? Circus, Grooves and Hit Parader constantly had the
likes of Zeppelin and Kiss adorning the covers of their Best of Heavy
Metal publications. Grooves said of Aerosmith in 1978, "And the sledgehammer
that powers the American Heavy Metal Machine is undeniably Aerosmith."

I'm not sure how you see this as a "matter of opinion". It's not! You
are just wrong. History proves it so. You're personal experience
does not change the fact that metal as a genre was born in the 1970's
with two distinct movements. One in Europe and one in the U.S.

Okay, fine you big baby.

ultmetal wrote:

Sorry. It's not a matter of opinion here. Bands like Ted Nugent, Kiss, Aerosmith were metal in the 70's. I can give you reviews, articles, quotes from the bands, bands of comparison, etc. etc. etc. It's history, not opinion.

Yeah true there's no denying history.....but i would never box 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter as being purely a 'Heavy Metal Band'. They were Funk, R&B, Rock N' Roll, Blues as well as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock.

"...Heavy Metal is part of what we do...." - Joe Perry


You can see where people are coming from when they may say 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter are not Heavy Metal. Because those other elements those bands had were missing in much of the popular heavy metal since.

Heavy Metal in the 80's influences were paired and narrowed down further to purely heavy metal, which imo is why 80's heavy metal wasn't so great until a few and then a large number of hard rock/metal bands of the late 80's/early 90's started bringing other influences to meld to their metal alloys much like the 70's. Jane's Addiction, King's X, Faith No More etc. being great examples of this and reflection on what 70's heavy metal was all about.

So your right and wrong.

rattpoison wrote:

Am i alone in thinking original punk (the heavy stuff) was heavy metal. Bands like the Sex Pistols, Dead Boys, The Damned etc?

Sorry but yes.

rattpoison wrote:

Yeah true there's no denying history.....but i would never box 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter as being purely a 'Heavy Metal Band'. They were Funk, R&B, Rock N' Roll, Blues as well as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock.

Same goes for Zeppelin. Plant hated that they were called heavy metal because a third of their music was acoustic.

xyz wrote:

rattpoison wrote:

Yeah true there's no denying history.....but i would never box 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter as being purely a 'Heavy Metal Band'. They were Funk, R&B, Rock N' Roll, Blues as well as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock.

Same goes for Zeppelin. Plant hated that they were called heavy metal because a third of their music was acoustic.

Frank Marino also hated the term 'heavy metal' because he just didn't think it was what Mahogany Rush played. Regardless, these bands were the beginning of metal. Sure, there was diversity. Priest was very diverse, but most don't deny that Judas Priest are metal. This strict definition of what metal is, didn't really begin until the mid-90's. Before that, we called it hard rock and we called it metal. You could see a denim and leather clad metal fan sporting a Slayer shirt, a Crue shirt or an Aerosmith shirt.

ultmetal wrote:

xyz wrote:

rattpoison wrote:

Yeah true there's no denying history.....but i would never box 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter as being purely a 'Heavy Metal Band'. They were Funk, R&B, Rock N' Roll, Blues as well as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock.

Same goes for Zeppelin. Plant hated that they were called heavy metal because a third of their music was acoustic.

Frank Marino also hated the term 'heavy metal' because he just didn't think it was what Mahogany Rush played. Regardless, these bands were the beginning of metal. Sure, there was diversity. Priest was very diverse, but most don't deny that Judas Priest are metal. This strict definition of what metal is, didn't really begin until the mid-90's. Before that, we called it hard rock and we called it metal. You could see a denim and leather clad metal fan sporting a Slayer shirt, a Crue shirt or an Aerosmith shirt.

Judas Priest's diversity was maybe more in slower/faster/lighter/darker songs, but no doubt they took the heavy metal element further than any other band at the time and stripped it of the other stuff like R&B, Funk, Blues. While Aerosmith/Thin Lizzy/Queen had all that.

That's why i have no problem in calling Judas Priest squarely a heavy metal band but sort of baulk at calling Aerosmith a heavy metal band. Yes and No is my roundabout answer.

rattpoison wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

xyz wrote:

rattpoison wrote:

Yeah true there's no denying history.....but i would never box 70's Aerosmith or Thin Lizzy for that matter as being purely a 'Heavy Metal Band'. They were Funk, R&B, Rock N' Roll, Blues as well as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock.

Same goes for Zeppelin. Plant hated that they were called heavy metal because a third of their music was acoustic.

Frank Marino also hated the term 'heavy metal' because he just didn't think it was what Mahogany Rush played. Regardless, these bands were the beginning of metal. Sure, there was diversity. Priest was very diverse, but most don't deny that Judas Priest are metal. This strict definition of what metal is, didn't really begin until the mid-90's. Before that, we called it hard rock and we called it metal. You could see a denim and leather clad metal fan sporting a Slayer shirt, a Crue shirt or an Aerosmith shirt.

Judas Priest's diversity was maybe more in slower/faster/lighter/darker songs, but no doubt they took the heavy metal element further than any other band at the time and stripped it of the other stuff like R&B, Funk, Blues. While Aerosmith/Thin Lizzy/Queen had all that.

That's why i have no problem in calling Judas Priest squarely a heavy metal band but sort of baulk at calling Aerosmith a heavy metal band. Yes and No is my roundabout answer.

Judas Priest didn't incorporate blues and R&B?

Thin Lizzy incorporated a lot of folk influences.

Aerosmith incorporated had funk, blues and even punk influences.

Black Sabbath incorporated a huge amount of blues.

Ted Nugent incorporated a ton of R&B and a handful of blues into his metal onslaught.

UFO incorporated funk and blues, and even psychedelia early on.

The Scorpions, as well, started off a bit psychedelic before incorporating a huge Hendrix influence to their sound.

Many of these bands went into different directions by the mid-80's, but there is no denying they were called 'heavy metal' in the 1970's. Like I have already done, I can supply reviews, articles, band quotes, etc. from all these bands. It's just what it was in that time. Judas Priest did not define heavy metal in the 70's. As a matter of fact, they weren't nearly as known as many other metal bands. Priest and Maiden dominated the 80's. It was Ted Nugent, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc. that dominated the 70's metal scene. I still have Magazines from the 70's. In particular, I have an issue of GROOVES from 1978 that features Queen and Aerosmith for the "Battle for the Heavy Metal Crown". "Rocks" is easily as heavy as "Sad Wings of Destiny" or "Stained Class". Ted Nugent's live shows were some of the loudest, heaviest music around in the 70's. According to a quote on the promo sticker of "Double Live Gonzo", "The madman's band is the greatest gonzoid heavy metal outfit to be found anywhere-but anywhere-on the whole of our beleaguered planet"

I'm not sure why people feel the need to deny what was and redefine. There were bands that defined heavy metal in the 70's, bands that defined a whole new breed of metal in the 80's, then again in the late 80's, and then again into the 1990's. Metal has become a very diverse category of music.

"Maintaining the agile balance between the Yardbirds...and Seventies heavy metal, Aerosmith's second album surges with pent-up fury." part of a review of Get Your Wings printed in Rolling Stone Magazine, 1974

Promo copies of "Get You Wings" in 1974 stated, "Aerosmith...New York's Heavy Metal Sound". Those who own the remastered version of "Get Your Wings", check out the collage on the instide.

"And the sledgehammer that powers the American Heavy Metal Machines is undeniably Aerosmith." -Grooves Magazine, 1978

"Aerosmith's power charged heavy metal sound works well here as the riveting guitars pace the rhythms..." part of a review of Draw the Line, Billboard Magazine, 1978

"We get nasty funk metal in Get the Lead Out and Last Child, Sabbath-based dirge metal in Nobody's Fault, Toys in the Attic II in speedster Rats in the Cellar" part of a review on Rocks from The Collector's Guide to Heavy Metal, Vol. 1: The Seventies, by Martin Popoff

more to come...

ultmetal wrote:

Judas Priest didn't incorporate blues and R&B?

Thin Lizzy incorporated a lot of folk influences.

Aerosmith incorporated had funk, blues and even punk influences.

Black Sabbath incorporated a huge amount of blues.

Ted Nugent incorporated a ton of R&B and a handful of blues into his metal onslaught.

UFO incorporated funk and blues, and even psychedelia early on.

The Scorpions, as well, started off a bit psychedelic before incorporating a huge Hendrix influence to their sound.

Judas Priest is basically the proto-typical metal band in my mind, the look, the sound, their should be a picture of them in the dictionary beside the term. But that also sells them a bit short...their songwriting was really their strength and it's alot more diverse than they usually get credit for. Their ability to write hooks is almost unbelievable (take an early example like Better By You, Better Than Me) especially noticeable in the Hell Bent For Leather thru Screaming For Vengeance era. Songs like Burnin' Up (supremely funky), Don't Have To Be Old To Be Wise, Turning Circles, You Say Yes, Fever, etc...are all prime examples of great pop (don't shoot me) songwriting skills.

Black Sabbath had a HUGE amount of jazz influences as well: the swing drum beat of Wicked World, the Wes Montgomery style octave guitar parts on Fairies Wear Boots, the jazz guitar solo on Planet Caravan, the chord choices on songs like Wheels Of Confusion....

Thin Lizzy was basically a metal band with a folk singer-songwriter...and that's a GOOD thing.

Musical terms are just too limiting in general and adding sub genre tags just makes it more confusing. Duke Ellington once said "There are only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind."

Oh, what does it matter? Metal is metal!

ultmetal wrote:

"Maintaining the agile balance between the Yardbirds...and Seventies heavy metal, Aerosmith's second album surges with pent-up fury." part of a review of Get Your Wings printed in Rolling Stone Magazine, 1974

Promo copies of "Get You Wings" in 1974 stated, "Aerosmith...New York's Heavy Metal Sound". Those who own the remastered version of "Get Your Wings", check out the collage on the instide.

"And the sledgehammer that powers the American Heavy Metal Machines is undeniably Aerosmith." -Grooves Magazine, 1978

"Aerosmith's power charged heavy metal sound works well here as the riveting guitars pace the rhythms..." part of a review of Draw the Line, Billboard Magazine, 1978

"We get nasty funk metal in Get the Lead Out and Last Child, Sabbath-based dirge metal in Nobody's Fault, Toys in the Attic II in speedster Rats in the Cellar" part of a review on Rocks from The Collector's Guide to Heavy Metal, Vol. 1: The Seventies, by Martin Popoff

more to come...

"...Swash-buckled heavy metal..."

- Part of a review on the Clash's 2nd LP "Give 'Em Enough Rope" in Sounds Magazine 1978.

"...The ultimate of rock swindles: the forcefeeding of heavy metal to punks, all the while Johnny preaching the demise of the dinosaurs that wrote their riffs..."

- Part of a review on the Sex Pistols "Nevermind The Bollocks (1977)" from The Collector's Guide To Heavy Metal 1: The Seventies, by Martin Popoff

"...the Dead Boys sound like borderline-competent heavy metal..."

- Part of the Dead Boys biography in the Rolling Stone Album Guide

"...An endearing chapter in metal's history..."

- Part of a review on the Dictator's "Manifest Destiny" (1977) from the Collector's Guide To Heavy Metal 1: The Seventies, by Martin Popoff

OK, we've established that rock journalists are douches. What's the point exactly?

oops

I can see how punk influenced metal, but I can't really see metal in punk.

Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Rush, and even Bad Company were called heavy metal bands back in the 70's, no one had an idea that music would evolve from Black Sabbath and Aerosmith type blues-based metal to Judas Priest's British Steel, to powermetal, death metal, etc, I agree that alot of bands that were considered metal would not be labeled as such now a days, but history along with the aging clueless hippies at Rolling Stone magazine consider all thoses bands metal and I am sure that is they will remain classified as such til the end of time, (well maybe expect for Bad Company)

xyz wrote:

I can see how punk influenced metal, but I can't really see metal in punk.

Then you should check out DRI, The Crucified, ST, The Exploited etc... (punk bands that added metal)

troublezone wrote:

xyz wrote:

I can see how punk influenced metal, but I can't really see metal in punk.

Then you should check out DRI, The Crucified, ST, The Exploited etc... (punk bands that added metal)

Those bands all started off as punk bands and "crossed over" to become metal bands.