1970's American Heavy Metal...

Trial by Fire wrote:

As stated a few times already, I think that the term Heavy Metal has just been redefined and some of those said bands just don't fit the new bill. Some may say that you can't go back and redefine history, but that is not what's happening. Metal has changed and the term holds a different meaning and guidelines than before and now the bands that no longer fall into the category of Metal have been reorganised. Not too many years ago, woman and non whites were considered not to be human beings, but as I hope everyone is all aware is that they are now. Saying that you can't redefine history and change how we sort these bands follows the logic of saying that women and non-whites before a certain time period shouldn't be called people because they were labelled as non humans at the time.

That's a valid point, but those who make it have to consider that the sword cuts both ways. There was a similar argument on Trog's board recently, and Trog made a comment that by this logic it's quite possible that what will be ultimatly remembered by history as "heavy metal" has not been invented yet; and that it may be reasonable to suggest that heavy metal very possibly does not yet exist as of 2008. It's funny, but think about it. It may very well turn out to be true!
I think we really have to keep taking context into account. Failing to keep contextual perspective leads to situations such as saying Abe Lincoln was no friend of blacks because he privately held culture bound derogetory opinions of them. Or saying Einstein wasn't much of a scientist because he couldn't grasp quantum mechanics as well as Heisenberg.

I've got it! Let's base all of our knowledge on Wikipedia.org! Everyone knows it tells the truth 100% of the time!

Fat Freddy wrote:

Can't we just say "One man's hard rock is another man's heavy metal" and leave it at that??

Agreed. It's hard to argue subgenres, I think. It's more open to opinion. And I think the era you grew up in will also affect your opinion. Sure, those bands from the 70s were very heavy for the time, but as time goes on, new bands get heavier and the past looks "lighter".

Let's just call it all "rock" and be happy.

Metal Misfit wrote:

Let's just call it all "rock" and be happy.

How would that be any fun?

Metal Misfit wrote:

Let's just call it all "rock" and be happy.

No, because Heart Of Rock just doesn't sound cool.

[quote="Metal Misfit"]

Fat Freddy wrote:

Let's just call it all "rock" and be happy.

It's in the eye of the beholder. I consider VH Heavy rock personally but i also see where ult is coming from. His generation considered bands like VH and Twisted Sister heavy metal and i think they were image wise but in hindsight now they were more rock than metal but i think they could be considered metal because they had the right components of metal like image and guitar solos. Standards have changed since the 70's because of refined production and skill in the metal field. At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

troublezone wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder. I consider VH Heavy rock personally but i also see where ult is coming from. His generation considered bands like VH and Twisted Sister heavy metal and i think they were image wise but in hindsight now they were more rock than metal but i think they could be considered metal because they had the right components of metal like image and guitar solos. Standards have changed since the 70's because of refined production and skill in the metal field. At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

You don't consider Twisted Sister metal? :kickbutt:

I have listened to Sabbath's first album many, many times and to me it sounds like dark blues rock but their next album (Paranoid) is definately what i consider the first real metal record. It was released the same year as its predecessor but to me it's where the true sound of metal began.

DeathCult wrote:

troublezone wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder. I consider VH Heavy rock personally but i also see where ult is coming from. His generation considered bands like VH and Twisted Sister heavy metal and i think they were image wise but in hindsight now they were more rock than metal but i think they could be considered metal because they had the right components of metal like image and guitar solos. Standards have changed since the 70's because of refined production and skill in the metal field. At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

You don't consider Twisted Sister metal? :kickbutt:

Read the last part of my post. I feel at the time they were metal for their day but now i consider them heavy rock. I don't care if anyone calls them metal though because it's a fine line anyways!

Too some folks...if it isn't fast and growly...it isn't metal.

do an experiment....play the music of "Detroit Rock City"....take out the harmony lead and add a tuned down lil bass riff and have the cookie monster sing it instead of Paul and alot of folks will go "wow...kewl metal tune"

The real issue as I see it isn't really who or what or where, but when.

troublezone wrote:

At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

What if in 20 years today's metal isn't considered metal? I know it probably will never happen. But IF it does happen, what do we say then?

xyz wrote:

troublezone wrote:

At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

What if in 20 years today's metal isn't considered metal? I know it probably will never happen. But IF it does happen, what do we say then?

I don't think that will happen simply because everything's already been done sonically. I don't think anything can get heavier than what has already been done so how can bands 20 years from now be more metal? When VH and Twisted came out metal was just still developing so to speak.

For some reason people have become bored with traditional metal so they throw in some rap here and industrial there to try and spice it up but those fads fade and real metal lasts forever. 20 years from now Sabbath will still be heard on whatever music player device they invent at that time.

rattpoison wrote:

The 80's was a sea of mediocrity, they only took the heavy metal aspect of bands like Thin Lizzy, Aerosmith etc. and narrowed it down much like todays heavy metal bands who not only aim to be exclusively heavy metal bands but aim to fit in small narrow genres of heavy metal.

It took til the early 90's for the spirit of the 70's to come back, and that's why the 70's and early 90's are they greatest eras in heavy metal.

I think I'll revoke you metal lisence for this!!!!

troublezone wrote:

xyz wrote:

troublezone wrote:

At the time VH and Twisted Sister were indeed Metal. They were the metal of their day!

What if in 20 years today's metal isn't considered metal? I know it probably will never happen. But IF it does happen, what do we say then?

I don't think that will happen simply because everything's already been done sonically. I don't think anything can get heavier than what has already been done so how can bands 20 years from now be more metal? When VH and Twisted came out metal was just still developing so to speak.

But that is exactly what is happening, and that is the reason why Scott made this thread. People called those bands heavy metal in the 70's, and that makes them heavy metal today also, regardless of how the new generations label them. 15 years ago I don't think very many people wpuld call Twisted sister anything but havy metal, but today we see it differently. And this is all ridiculous to me. We've even seen people debate whether or not WASP is a metal band. Again, that would not have happened 15 to 20 years ago. So in 15 more years people will remember Metallica as a rock band, and not the thrash metal monster they started out as, or even the metal band they evolved into. It's already happening. And thanks to all the Gothenburg band, death metal is the new metal, and not the Death Metal they all were influenced from, and most of the bands started out as.

When I have 20-somethings emailing me that Saxon and Judas Priest
are "just hard rock", then something is wrong. Judas Priest defined the
freakin' genre.

Here is what I recently posted at another board regarding this:
What do you do with the many, many books on the history of heavy
metal that directly oppose what some of you say about the 70's American heavy
metal bands? I've recently read a few books on the history of metal and
non of them deny that bands like Van Halen were the forerunners of the
movement at the time. Books like the Heavy Metal Collector's Guide by
Martin Popoff lists bands like Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Mahogany Rush,
Angel, Led Zeppelin, UFO, etc. How about all the printed publications from the time
period? Do they lie? Circus, Grooves and Hit Parader constantly had the
likes of Zeppelin and Kiss adorning the covers of their Best of Heavy
Metal publications. Grooves said of Aerosmith in 1978, "And the sledgehammer
that powers the American Heavy Metal Machine is undeniably Aerosmith."

I'm not sure how you see this as a "matter of opinion". It's not! You
are just wrong. History proves it so. You're personal experience
does not change the fact that metal as a genre was born in the 1970's
with two distinct movements. One in Europe and one in the U.S.

That is the problem Scott, nowadays everythig has to be labeled and filed into it;s certain lil fille. If you were not alive in the 70's, much les listening to music then. Any opinion you have is missing what really counts. Real life experience. The music then was compared to what else was being put out. Not what has been put out since. Get a clue, kiddies.

as far as i am concerned if it was heavy metal back then thenit is still heavy metal today!

James B. wrote:

That is the problem Scott, nowadays everythig has to be labeled and filed into it;s certain lil fille. If you were not alive in the 70's, much les listening to music then. Any opinion you have is missing what really counts. Real life experience. The music then was compared to what else was being put out. Not what has been put out since. Get a clue, kiddies.

Funny this thread should be bumped back up. My wife went to see Chicago and the Doobie Brothers last week. It prompted her to purchase a "best of Chicago" CD. I'm sitting there listening to what she is calling 1970's rock and roll thinking, how can anyone NOT think that bands like Aerosmith and Ted Nugent were "heavy metal" in contrast.

Also, I received a promo vinyl copy of "Double Live Gonzo" not long ago. The sticker on the front of it announced, ""The madman's band is the greatest gonzoid heavy metal outfit to be found anywhere-
but anywhere-on the whole of our beleaguered planet!" -Sounds, 1978

ultmetal wrote:

James B. wrote:

That is the problem Scott, nowadays everythig has to be labeled and filed into it;s certain lil fille. If you were not alive in the 70's, much les listening to music then. Any opinion you have is missing what really counts. Real life experience. The music then was compared to what else was being put out. Not what has been put out since. Get a clue, kiddies.

Funny this thread should be bumped back up. My wife went to see Chicago and the Doobie Brothers last week. It prompted her to purchase a "best of Chicago" CD. I'm sitting there listening to what she is calling 1970's rock and roll thinking, how can anyone NOT think that bands like Aerosmith and Ted Nugent were "heavy metal" in contrast.

Also, I received a promo vinyl copy of "Double Live Gonzo" not long ago. The sticker on the front of it announced, ""The madman's band is the greatest gonzoid heavy metal outfit to be found anywhere-
but anywhere-on the whole of our beleaguered planet!" -Sounds, 1978

I like The Doobies and alot of older Chicago, hope she had a good time bro.
If Death Metal bands began playing in the late 70's they would of been considered punk rock, go figure

Am i alone in thinking original punk (the heavy stuff) was heavy metal. Bands like the Sex Pistols, Dead Boys, The Damned etc?

yes

I always thought the early punk stuff was to be anti-hard rock (or metal, if you will).