Why wasn't Savatage bigger?

I figured this is a good place to start since there are so many Savafans here.

This question has been on my mind for a while. Why didn't thid band have more success?

The only things I can come up with, was there music obviously wasn't very commercial. But I think the bigger thing is, is that their music is an acquired taste. I didn't like them a lot at first but I liked them enough to give them a chance and their songs grew on me.

Btw, obviously I'm not talking about being huge like Metallica or anything. I just don't believe they achieved the success they deserved.

Your opinions are welcome....

They were on the wrong label. And never played fashionable music. Except as TSO, of course.

But as a fan I am glad they never fell in to the cogwheel of commercialism. The label's attempt at commercial success, Fight for the Rock, is by far their worst album.

Jon's voice is an acquired taste imo, and by the time they brought Zak in, music had shifted to a different sound.

DH, funny you say that because EOT is when I got really got into them. Then Criss died and they were never the same for me.

Lari wrote:

They were on the wrong label. And never played fashionable music. Except as TSO, of course.

But as a fan I am glad they never fell in to the cogwheel of commercialism The label's attempt at commercial success, Fight for the Rock, is by far their worst album.

Same here, they definitely never sold out.

I liked Gutter Ballet a lot and I liked them with Caffery but it was a different sound.

I like all the albums with Criss.

Don't know why they weren't a bigger band but they deserved to be. A shame, really.Their whole discography is a solid listen.

I think you make some great points, Rich. And you too, Lari. My guess, that I would add to what you guys said, was that they weren't "pushed" enough by their label and MTV. By the time they had some commercial success with "Hall" the times were already changing to a constant rotation of the "hair" bands and less of the power and traditional Metal stuff. I have always felt that the media sort off "anoints" a new fave and pushes them down the throats of the consumer (Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Poison, GnR) until subconsciously we think "well they must be good" so we buy in. For me, I was hooked the moment I heard the opening riff of Hall of the Mountain King on Headbanger's Ball. 30+ years on and I still love anything Jon puts out.

Dark Horseman wrote:

Jon's voice is an acquired taste imo, and by the time they brought Zak in, music had shifted to a different sound.

I agree and I think that's a big part of it.  I think if they'd have started with Zak they might have had a little more success but I still don't think they'd have been huge because their music just isn't "commercial" enough.  I love Gutter Ballet too BTW DH; I'll never forget seeing the title cut on Headbanger's Ball; I ran out and bought the CD the next day.

Maybe they had poor management. Along with Jon Oliva’s Voice (an acquired taste). That’s why they later switched to Zach Stevens.

You could say that about a lot of bands, of course.
I felt Savatage - were darker than most bands - possibly satanic via lyrics/sound/ voice.
If they were going to be bigger - it had to happen in the late 1980s.
I saw them live in 1987 - a 500 person club. Packed.
I heard speculation that “ Fight for Rock “ release - alienated people.

Glower wrote:

You could say that about a lot of bands, of course.
I felt Savatage - were darker than most bands - possibly satanic via lyrics/sound/ voice.

That was only in the beginning though.

Big Rich wrote:

Glower wrote:

You could say that about a lot of bands, of course.
I felt Savatage - were darker than most bands - possibly satanic via lyrics/sound/ voice.

That was only in the beginning though.

True. I didn't mention it, because a lot of my brothers here have, is that Jon's voice is an acquired taste. I know we all love it, but it wasn't polished and for the mainstream the way that John Bon Jovi, Joey Tempest, Sebastian Bach, or Coverdale were. Sure, someone like a Tom Keifer had an original sound, but they had the label pushing them and the blessing of JBJ.

They were never bigger because traditional heavy metal was virtually dead by about 86/87. If they had released their first album in 1980, they could have been much bigger. They then decided to be a pomp-rock band and sucked. The end.

Well I don't know why they never got bigger, but for me I started losing faith when Gutter Ballet came out, and after Streets: A Rock Opera came out, I was pretty much done with them. I might pick up a couple more latter albums, but they really turned me off after Streets. I have Edge of Thorns, and it's not much better IMO.

Wrecked Neck wrote:

Well I don't know why they never got bigger, but for me I started losing faith when Gutter Ballet came out, and after Streets: A Rock Opera came out, I was pretty much done with them. I might pick up a couple more latter albums, but they really turned me off after Streets. I have Edge of Thorns, and it's not much better IMO.

Gutter Ballet is my favorite by them and it was also my first introduction. I think it’s a good mixture of traditional metal with some prog thrown in. But it also had some broader radio accessibility (when radio actually played metal).

Edge Of Thorns is my favorite metal record ever, and nobody would call me a "Pomp-Metal" fan.

But Criss was incredible on that record, imo. But I love the early stuff too.

Troublezone wrote:

Wrecked Neck wrote:

Well I don't know why they never got bigger, but for me I started losing faith when Gutter Ballet came out, and after Streets: A Rock Opera came out, I was pretty much done with them. I might pick up a couple more latter albums, but they really turned me off after Streets. I have Edge of Thorns, and it's not much better IMO.

Gutter Ballet is my favorite by them and it was also my first introduction. I think it’s a good mixture of traditional metal with some prog thrown in. But it also had some broader radio accessibility (when radio actually played metal).

GB was the first song I ever heard by them, and it was on a college radio station.

Big Rich wrote:

ge
GB was the first song I ever heard by them, and it was on  a college radio station.

Mine too. It was the video I saw, in the 90s. The next time I went to a record store I looked if I could grab a CD of theirs for cheap. Ended up with a second hand copy of Streets. That's where I started - now they are my favourite band and I own them all.

The Wake of Magellan is probably my favourite album of theirs. Mountain King is a solid 2nd.

I think the answer is rather simple, w/the exception of "Hall of the Mountain King", their discovery was not near as good as say Priest, Maiden or Sabbath. They certainly were good enough for us gear heads, but they were never going to appeal to the masses. Same holds true for bands like Saxon and Armored Saint.

candlemass wrote:

I think the answer is rather simple, w/the exception of "Hall of the Mountain King", their discovery was not near as good as say Priest, Maiden or Sabbath. They certainly were good enough for us gear heads, but they were never going to appeal to the masses. Same holds true for bands like Saxon and Armored Saint.

Nobody is as good as those 3.

Maybe I'm selfish, but I don't really want my favourite bands to appeal to the masses. Other people always crowd up concert halls and drive up prices.

But it's important there's enough fans to make touring near my hometown possible.

So it's a slippery slope. There's not many bands in that sweet spot.

Troublezone wrote:

Wrecked Neck wrote:

Well I don't know why they never got bigger, but for me I started losing faith when Gutter Ballet came out, and after Streets: A Rock Opera came out, I was pretty much done with them. I might pick up a couple more latter albums, but they really turned me off after Streets. I have Edge of Thorns, and it's not much better IMO.

Gutter Ballet is my favorite by them and it was also my first introduction. I think it’s a good mixture of traditional metal with some prog thrown in. But it also had some broader radio accessibility (when radio actually played metal).

It's a favorite by a lot of Savatage fans, but for the life of me, I can't hear what they do, because other than a couple songs on it,I find it really boring. It's better than Streets, but not by much.

Lari wrote:

Big Rich wrote:

ge
GB was the first song I ever heard by them, and it was on  a college radio station.

Mine too. It was the video I saw, in the 90s. The next time I went to a record store I looked if I could grab a CD of theirs for cheap. Ended up with a second hand copy of Streets. That's where I started - now they are my favourite band and I own them all.

The Wake of Magellan is probably my favourite album of theirs. Mountain King is a solid 2nd.

Wake is my favorite as well; I thought I was the only person that thought that.

I just think they were in a neither world, they were not a thrash band like a Metallica or Megadeth and they were not a pop/hair metal band like Ratt or Poison.

Also being the MTV era, let's be honest, in a visual medium, these guys were not pin ups. Sometimes listen to music with their eyes not their ears.

tohostudios wrote:

Lari wrote:

Big Rich wrote:

ge
GB was the first song I ever heard by them, and it was on  a college radio station.

Mine too. It was the video I saw, in the 90s. The next time I went to a record store I looked if I could grab a CD of theirs for cheap. Ended up with a second hand copy of Streets. That's where I started - now they are my favourite band and I own them all.

The Wake of Magellan is probably my favourite album of theirs. Mountain King is a solid 2nd.

Wake is my favorite as well; I thought I was the only person that thought that.

You 2 are insane.