R.I.P. Billy Graham

I'm watching a fascinating biopic on Billy Graham.  It's very interesting to hear "secular" personalities like Larry King and Charlie Gibson comment on Graham's life and message. And watching Graham hold rallies behind the Iron Curtain in huge stadiums packed with a hundred thousand people is amazing.

Not a fan of Graham or his ministry... I disagree with his theology and have no use for his son at all. It agitated me that he was treated as some kind of US hero and his casket was placed in the capital rotunda and some city's lowered flags to half mass... geez! He was just one of many famous preachers.. I believe in the complete separation of church and state and it frustrates me that Franklin Graham and the evangelicals are trying to turn our country's laws into a theocracy. Seems like since Trump got in the evangelicals have come out of the woodwork acting like they rule the country. I recently heard an evangelical preacher say the "freedom of religion" law did not mean freedom to choose a religion but meant freedom to choose a denomination in the Christian faith...crazy! I do believe in God but I don't believe we are under the laws (including the ten commandments) and I do not believe in the concept of original sin or the trinity... I think religion should be a private thing kept in ones home and has no part in  government or our schools...

brokentulsa wrote:

Not a fan of Graham or his ministry... I disagree with his theology and have no use for his son at all. It agitated me that he was treated as some kind of US hero and his casket was placed in the capital rotunda and some city's lowered flags to half mass... geez! He was just one of many famous preachers.. I believe in the complete separation of church and state and it frustrates me that Franklin Graham and the evangelicals are trying to turn our country's laws into a theocracy. Seems like since Trump got in the evangelicals have come out of the woodwork acting like they rule the country. I recently heard an evangelical preacher say the "freedom of religion" law did not mean freedom to choose a religion but meant freedom to choose a denomination in the Christian faith...crazy! I do believe in God but I don't believe we are under the laws (including the ten commandments) and I do not believe in the concept of original sin or the trinity... I think religion should be a private thing kept in ones home and has no part in  government or our schools...

brokentulsa wrote:

Not a fan of Graham or his ministry... I disagree with his theology and have no use for his son at all. It agitated me that he was treated as some kind of US hero and his casket was placed in the capital rotunda and some city's lowered flags to half mass... geez! He was just one of many famous preachers.. I believe in the complete separation of church and state and it frustrates me that Franklin Graham and the evangelicals are trying to turn our country's laws into a theocracy. Seems like since Trump got in the evangelicals have come out of the woodwork acting like they rule the country. I recently heard an evangelical preacher say the "freedom of religion" law did not mean freedom to choose a religion but meant freedom to choose a denomination in the Christian faith...crazy! I do believe in God but I don't believe we are under the laws (including the ten commandments) and I do not believe in the concept of original sin or the trinity... I think religion should be a private thing kept in ones home and has no part in  government or our schools...

If you don't agree with the Ten Commandments, that means you think murder, lying and stealing are no big deal...

Maybe they are just suggestions.

Quote :

If you don't agree with the Ten Commandments, that means you think murder, lying and stealing are no big deal...

Maybe they are just suggestions.

  Actually the Apostle paul wrote we are no longer under the law including the ones written on stone (10 commandments)...in fact he wrote that those who live under the law have fallen from grace and are cursed. (I can provide scripture if needed). Sin is no longer a problem for the believer and there is no judgment for the believer and the unbelievers have already judged themselves (again I can provide scripture) ... But since you said what you said murder, lying and stealing is not right and may break mans law but  when those things happen I am not moved one way or another... I don't concentrate on sin or breaking the law because scripture says I don't have to. I encourage you to start believing the bible instead of the nonsense the bible belt teaches

brokentulsa wrote:

Quote :

If you don't agree with the Ten Commandments, that means you think murder, lying and stealing are no big deal...

Maybe they are just suggestions.

  Actually the Apostle paul wrote we are no longer under the law including the ones written on stone (10 commandments)...in fact he wrote that those who live under the law have fallen from grace and are cursed. (I can provide scripture if needed). Sin is no longer a problem for the believer and there is no judgment for the believer and the unbelievers have already judged themselves (again I can provide scripture) ... But since you said what you said murder, lying and stealing is not right and may break mans law but  when those things happen I am not moved one way or another... I don't concentrate on sin or breaking the law because scripture says I don't have to. I encourage you to start believing the bible instead of the nonsense the bible belt teaches

I can agree that Christians are not under the law, but without observance of the Ten Commandments, it would be like a plague of lawlessness. And what do you point to for an unbeliever to understand that they are a sinner? God's grace is not a license to commit sin. Grace should not be seen that way...
And walking around like your untouchable is a dangerous attitude.

Troublezone wrote:

brokentulsa wrote:

Quote :

If you don't agree with the Ten Commandments, that means you think murder, lying and stealing are no big deal...

Maybe they are just suggestions.

  Actually the Apostle paul wrote we are no longer under the law including the ones written on stone (10 commandments)...in fact he wrote that those who live under the law have fallen from grace and are cursed. (I can provide scripture if needed). Sin is no longer a problem for the believer and there is no judgment for the believer and the unbelievers have already judged themselves (again I can provide scripture) ... But since you said what you said murder, lying and stealing is not right and may break mans law but  when those things happen I am not moved one way or another... I don't concentrate on sin or breaking the law because scripture says I don't have to. I encourage you to start believing the bible instead of the nonsense the bible belt teaches

I can agree that Christians are not under the law, but without observance of the Ten Commandments, it would be like a plague of lawlessness. And what do you point to for an unbeliever to understand that they are a sinner? God's grace is not a license to commit sin. Grace should not be seen that way...
And walking around like your untouchable is a dangerous attitude.

I understand that christians of today feel the need to forget the old testament. But reading what your saviour is supposed to have said i can`t see how you can.
Unless you interpret the message to fit what you want it to be.

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18).

Troublezone...here are some articles that will explain better what I'm trying to say...  https://escapetoreality.org/?s=The+law&submit=Search

Troublezone... let me ask you a question: based on your views of the Ten Commandments and the law do you think it's okay for a Believer to publicly or privately spend their time, effort and money  promoting  sin and those who promote sin and breaking the law...

brokentulsa wrote:

Troublezone...here are some articles that will explain better what I'm trying to say...  https://escapetoreality.org/?s=The+law&submit=Search

Ugh, not surprising though...

https://www.therefinersfire.org/no_commandments.htm

brokentulsa wrote:

Troublezone... let me ask you a question: based on your views of the Ten Commandments and the law do you think it's okay for a Believer to publicly or privately spend their time, effort and money  promoting  sin and those who promote sin and breaking the law...

Firstly, my view of the Ten Commandments is that they should be observed simply because God abhors sin, but any true believer knows that (we all have sinned) and broke the law. That's why Christ is so important! He took the penalty upon himself so those who trust in him can be forgiven. But at the same time, we are not to abuse or take grace for granted by disregarding the Commandments.

And my answer to your question about promoting sin is this:

Is it what God wants? I don't think so... but we're all guilty of it at some point.

Many theologians believe that the "law that was nailed to the cross" was actually the ridiculous Mosaic laws that was concerned with Jews not being able to walk 1/4 mile without praying, the Mosaic dietary laws, and stuff of that ilk. The Ten Commandments are the only thing in the entire Bible written by God's own hand. I highly doubt He would go through the trouble just to say F it a couple thousand years later. But I can understand why most Christians want to believe that God's Law has been done away with as they worship on Sunday, not the actual Sabbath.

The thing to keep in mind when talking religion is how many different beliefs exist and how many different interpretations within each religion exist... take christianity: over 1000 different denominations in the USA alone...over 200 different versions of the Bible....when you walk into a christian bookstore half the books on the shelf say the other half of books on the shelf are lies.... everyone has a different biblical interpretation. Judaism is splintered and so is islam... pegans, wicca, new age, satanism,  buddhism,  hinduism, humanism....its just endless. Many believe religious ideas because they were taught or forced to...not because they really believe it. I really understand why some would look at all this and say to hell with it and be athiest or agnostic... in the end all we can do is follow our hearts and believe whats in our core spirit...

Really, in the end, all the matters is John 3:16.

mikeinfla wrote:

Really, in the 6end, all the matters is John 3:16.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say all along. It's the "core" message. Maybe it's too simple for many to accept... People have a tendency to over complicate things. They think they need to jump through hoops and religious red tape.

mikeinfla wrote:

Really, in the end, all the matters is John 3:16.

Well said!

Troublezone wrote:

mikeinfla wrote:

Really, in the 6end, all the matters is John 3:16.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say all along. It's the "core" message. Maybe it's too simple for many to accept... People have a tendency to over complicate things. They think they need to jump through hoops and religious red tape.

Could you expand on that a bit? If that's all that matters, is that all we need, should we chuck the rest of the bible, Church all together?

candlemass wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

mikeinfla wrote:

Really, in the 6end, all the matters is John 3:16.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say all along. It's the "core" message. Maybe it's too simple for many to accept... People have a tendency to over complicate things. They think they need to jump through hoops and religious red tape.

Could you expand on that a bit? If that's all that matters, is that all we need, should we chuck the rest of the bible, Church all together?

If you are on your death bed 5 minutes from death then John 3:16 is all that matters because it's time to meet the Maker.

mikeinfla wrote:

candlemass wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

mikeinfla wrote:

Really, in the 6end, all the matters is John 3:16.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say all along. It's the "core" message. Maybe it's too simple for many to accept... People have a tendency to over complicate things. They think they need to jump through hoops and religious red tape.

Could you expand on that a bit? If that's all that matters, is that all we need, should we chuck the rest of the bible, Church all together?

If you are on your death bed 5 minutes from death then John 3:16 is all that matters because it's time to meet the Maker.

To add to this, which I agree with as far as the core principle, we can't chuck the rest of the bible because scripture potentially falls under the blanket statement of 3:16 and therefore illuminates it. One cannot simply state that their favorite part of On the Road is the final famous paragraph without having read the rest of the book. And as for church, church already exists as a state of union among believers, again under 3:16. Those in Christ make up the church. As for attending church services, serving in the church, etc, those aren't requirements, just traditional (and many times cosmetic) methods of social support and community involvement. There are benefits to serving a church, of course, but also increasing risk because of man's mishandling of orthodoxy throughout history. So it's not wonder many who have been externally observing the church's actions through the ages see nothing but hoops and red tape. It's not necessarily people doing this--it's how the church has promoted theocracy into a purely Western religion.

I'm confused! Can I or can't I covet my neighbor's ox? (Because I really want to!)

Boris2008 wrote:

I'm confused! Can I or can't I covet my neighbor's ox? (Because I really want to!)

Is it for sale?

Christianity does not have a patent on laws like "thou shalt not kill", etc. - to say that without the ten commandments, we would have no morals (as if it wasn't innate in human beings, and religion borrows it from us), is something so ludicrously flawed in the most elemental of ways, it's hard for me to understand how intelligent people can sincerely believe it.

Religion is man made, ie. whatever morals it may teach is man made.

Mglaffas81 wrote:

Christianity does not have a patent on laws like "thou shalt not kill", etc. - to say that without the ten commandments, we would have no morals (as if it wasn't innate in human beings, and religion borrows it from us), is something so ludicrously flawed in the most elemental of ways, it's hard for me to understand how intelligent people can sincerely believe it.

Religion is man made, ie. whatever morals it may teach is man made.

Of coarse it's just your opinion that All religions are man made. You can't disprove God's existence. You just think we are intelligent animals that evolved from a random big bang in space. I see no evidence of any other lifeforms in our solar system or galaxy. Why does man exist? Why do humans have a level of intelligence and enlightenment far beyond other animals? Just a coincidence? It doesn't add up...

Quote :

You can't disprove God's existence. You just think we are intelligent animals that evolved from a random big bang in space. I see no evidence of any other lifeforms in our solar system or galaxy. Why does man exist? Why do humans have a level of intelligence and enlightenment far beyond other animals? Just a coincidence? It doesn't add up...

Troublezone, can you prove that Christianity is right and Islam, Judaism, etc. is wrong...and can you prove your version or interpretation of scripture is right...or is it just your opinion? There have been many civilizations that didn't believe in Jesus who had morals. Atheist have morals. Islam has morals.. You and I both claim to believe in Jesus yet we have completely different theology's and while we share some of the same morals we would disagree on some others.. Opinions?

It's fine to believe or follow (I don't think people sincerely believe the central premises of their faith) whatever you like - that doesn't bother me at all - just don't try to infiltrate public law with some cherry-picked hatred against the likes of homosexuals and abortion (if you actually read the bible, you'll find that it actually favors abortion) - It's bad enough that you're poisoning your children with nonsense, you should bloody well not influence the rest of society with these stupid, backward, and again stupid views. I'll say it without conceit, I think that raising a child based on any form of religion/interpretation of religion is wrong and disgusting - to actually say to a child that the natural feelings he has towards someone of the opposite sex is wrong is something I can never forgive - I truly believe that religious people are the reason why the republican party still exists, even though they F*ck everyone who isn't extremely wealthy over