Fight for the Rock?

Vexer6 wrote:

Criss was an integral part of the group, and without him it sounded like a completely different band.

I have no argument on that front. The more I hear the old albums and the old live recordings (no two of which tend to sound the same), the more convinced I become that Criss dying was a huge crime against music in general.

Still, while Savatage may have changed, I don't think they changed for the worse.

What are your thoughts on Jon Oliva's Pain? He was using old tapes of Criss' riffs in writing three of the four albums released under that name, so you're getting as close to the songwriting team behind prime Sava as is possible without necromancy.

Vexer6 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

I think it's one of their best, I prefer it to everything that came after Edge Of Thorns.

You cwazy.   

I just personally felt like the band lost something after Criss Olivia died. I think perhaps it would've been best if they'd called it quits at that point, Criss was an integral part of the group, and without him it sounded like a completely different band.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been best if they'd quit. They put out some brilliant albums after he was gone. =)

I went with the "Meh, it's ok" option. I bought a cheap copy of it a few years ago just to complete my Sav discography. Spun it a few times, then shelved it. It's a space saver in my collection.

When the time comes that I finally realize I'm not that big of a Savatage fan and need room in the cabinet, at least I can sell off a complete set.

Eyesore wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

I think it's one of their best, I prefer it to everything that came after Edge Of Thorns.

You cwazy.   

I just personally felt like the band lost something after Criss Olivia died. I think perhaps it would've been best if they'd called it quits at that point, Criss was an integral part of the group, and without him it sounded like a completely different band.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been best if they'd quit. They put out some brilliant albums after he was gone. =)

For me those post-Thorns albums were only OK at best, they just didn't have that same magic that the previous albums had.

As for Jon Olivia's Pain, I quite enjoy them, they do sound fairly close to the Savatage of old, close enough anyways.

S.D. wrote:

The very definition of "phoned-in".  Uninspired, lazy, boring album.

Disagree, dosen't sound "phoned-in" "Uninspired" "lazy" or "boring" at all.

Vexer6 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

I think it's one of their best, I prefer it to everything that came after Edge Of Thorns.

You cwazy.   

I just personally felt like the band lost something after Criss Olivia died. I think perhaps it would've been best if they'd called it quits at that point, Criss was an integral part of the group, and without him it sounded like a completely different band.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been best if they'd quit. They put out some brilliant albums after he was gone. =)

For me those post-Thorns albums were only OK at best, they just didn't have that same magic that the previous albums had.

If you prefer the heavier Savatage material then you should check out Doctor Butcher featuring Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery.  Personally, Savatage completely lost me with Streets and I find JOP to be hit or miss - my favorite is Maniacal Renderings.

Vexer6 wrote:

S.D. wrote:

The very definition of "phoned-in".  Uninspired, lazy, boring album.

Disagree, dosen't sound "phoned-in" "Uninspired" "lazy" or "boring" at all.

It's called opinion, not a new concept.

Doctor Butcher is one of those hidden gems. 100% worth checking out!

"Don't Talk to Me" is one of those teen angst songs you can enjoy no matter how farting old you are.   

Oh yes indeed, Doctor Butcher is badass.

Had to revisit this one, and it appears it is actually not as bad. Have some pretty good songs, and a couple of killitwithfire, obvious, ones. Same as Vexer, didn't quite get Sava after Chris' death. To be completely honest, Gutter Ballet is a desert island record, others I can survive without.

If Savatage only released Gutter Ballet, they'd still be worth idolizing.

Recently found out about Doctor Butcher thanks to Keith; amazing project with really memorable music.

Post-Criss albums were pretty good, and Handful of Rain, as uneven as it is, has been an intimate keepsake of mine since it came out.

Fight for the Rock is OK but passive; not the Savatage I grew up with. The one album I'm really not a fan of is Edge of Thorns (except for the title track, of course).

Lastly, I'll throw in this: Zach is a terrible vocalist. K that covers all bases for now.

Runicen wrote:

If Savatage only released Gutter Ballet, they'd still be worth idolizing.

What if Savatage had only released Fight For the Rock? Would then have then been regarded as one of the great "one album wonders"?

A lot of the bum rap that FFTR gets is as a result of it paling in comparison to the rest of Savatage's albums. But what if those other albums didn't exist and Savatage were purely judged on this one?

"Band shows some potential, with surprisingly heavy and dark songs such as the title track, Hyde and Red Light Paradise. However, most of the material on the album is made up of generic '80s hair metal. Soon after this album, the band split up, which is a pity, considering the heavier tracks hinted they had potential to be more than just another hair band, had they just managed to withstand the label presssure."

corplhicks wrote:

Lastly, I'll throw in this: Zach is a terrible vocalist. K that covers all bases for now.

I felt this way for a long while, but he's starting to grow on me and I'm starting to recognize the strength of the albums he's the primary vocalist for - particularly Wake of Magellan.

I think his weakness is that Paul O'Neill tried to get him to angry up his voice and sing like Jon, which was a huge mistake. He simply doesn't sound natural doing it and can't emote for crap with that sound. Somewhere in the liners for Edge of Thorns, it talks about Zach being able to sing Roads to Madness by Queensryche and I kind of suspect his natural range was more of a Halford/Tate thing.

Just a shame and a what-if.

TGD, probably not far from the truth...

Runicen wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

Lastly, I'll throw in this: Zach is a terrible vocalist. K that covers all bases for now.

I felt this way for a long while, but he's starting to grow on me and I'm starting to recognize the strength of the albums he's the primary vocalist for - particularly Wake of Magellan.

I think his weakness is that Paul O'Neill tried to get him to angry up his voice and sing like Jon, which was a huge mistake.  He simply doesn't sound natural doing it and can't emote for crap with that sound.  Somewhere in the liners for Edge of Thorns, it talks about Zach being able to sing Roads to Madness by Queensryche and I kind of suspect his natural range was more of a Halford/Tate thing.

Just a shame and a what-if.  

TGD, probably not far from the truth...

You're actually onto something; I should have expanded more on that thought. Yes, he can't sing angry. But his mellow voice? Beautiful. Good example of this is Chance. I still get goosebumps at that final section. He has a great voice for theater, just not a very good rock voice. When he pushes it, he sounds forced and, frankly, silly.

His work on Magellan was his peak.

I'm still sorry they never really explored the idea Jon frequently mentions of his intended hiatus after Streets leading to there being two lead vocalists in the band. That got dropped as described in retrospect more or less when Criss died and that's a damn shame. I don't think there would be nearly the level of mixed feelings about the Stevens albums if Jon was an equal presence on lead vocals.

It would have also freed up Zach to be the "pretty" voice to offset Jon's roar.

If wishes were fishes, etc.

Runicen wrote:

I'm still sorry they never really explored the idea Jon frequently mentions of his intended hiatus after Streets leading to there being two lead vocalists in the band.  That got dropped as described in retrospect more or less when Criss died and that's a damn shame.  I don't think there would be nearly the level of mixed feelings about the Stevens albums if Jon was an equal presence on lead vocals.  

It would have also freed up Zach to be the "pretty" voice to offset Jon's roar.

If wishes were fishes, etc.

Does anyone really know why Jon decided to not contribute lead vox after Streets?

Quote :

Does anyone really know why Jon decided to not contribute lead vox after Streets?

I believe the official story was that his drug & alcohol intake was endangering his voice and his general health so he quit the band for his own well being.

According to some interviews I've seen and the reissue liners, his voice was shredded to the point that it was take time off or have Miles Davis' speaking voice forever.

I suspect his partying was pretty legendary as well.

That said, the claim is that there would ultimately be two lead vocalists in Savatage. I've never seen any mention as to why that didn't really happen, but there were references made to some contractual issues, which is why Jon played damn near everything on Handful of Rain and yet didn't get a credit on the release. I suspect that may have been the deal because, until Poets & Madmen, he didn't get more than 2 songs per album. That seems conveniently legal to me.

Runicen wrote:

According to some interviews I've seen and the reissue liners, his voice was shredded to the point that it was take time off or have Miles Davis' speaking voice forever.

I suspect his partying was pretty legendary as well.

That said, the claim is that there would ultimately be two lead vocalists in Savatage.  I've never seen any mention as to why that didn't really happen, but there were references made to some contractual issues, which is why Jon played damn near everything on Handful of Rain and yet didn't get a credit on the release.  I suspect that may have been the deal because, until Poets & Madmen, he didn't get more than 2 songs per album.  That seems conveniently legal to me.

Makes sense about his voice; it's not like he was ever a properly trained vocalist (albeit a talented musician). I didn't understand all the legal rap that came after Criss' death; it was bizarre how he was rarely ever properly credited for his (major) contributions. My only guess is the label interfered for some odd reason, but that's just a wild stab without precedent.

Fat Freddy wrote:

I believe the official story was that his drug & alcohol intake was endangering his voice and his general health so he quit the band for his own well being.

This.

corplhicks wrote:

Lastly, I'll throw in this: Zach is a terrible vocalist.

Yeah, that's retarded.

corplhicks wrote:

Runicen wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

Lastly, I'll throw in this: Zach is a terrible vocalist. K that covers all bases for now.

I felt this way for a long while, but he's starting to grow on me and I'm starting to recognize the strength of the albums he's the primary vocalist for - particularly Wake of Magellan.

I think his weakness is that Paul O'Neill tried to get him to angry up his voice and sing like Jon, which was a huge mistake.  He simply doesn't sound natural doing it and can't emote for crap with that sound.  Somewhere in the liners for Edge of Thorns, it talks about Zach being able to sing Roads to Madness by Queensryche and I kind of suspect his natural range was more of a Halford/Tate thing.

Just a shame and a what-if.  

TGD, probably not far from the truth...

You're actually onto something; I should have expanded more on that thought. Yes, he can't sing angry. But his mellow voice? Beautiful. Good example of this is Chance. I still get goosebumps at that final section. He has a great voice for theater, just not a very good rock voice. When he pushes it, he sounds forced and, frankly, silly.

His work on Magellan was his peak.

Do you ever stick to your guns? You just said he was terrible! Now his voice is beautiful and it gives you goose bumps?

Either way, he's a fantastic vocalist.

I think there's a distinction between Zach as being a good vocalist and being a good vocalist for Savatage. I think he's got lots of talent (sadly kind of washed as now the "Sava" sound is the only one he uses), but wasn't ever a great fit for the band.

Maybe I'm projecting a bit here, but I thought Hicks was going for that as well.

Going to the Jon credits thing, label interference seems to be the one thread that runs through the Savatage story. Bad management around Fight for the Rock nearly destroyed the band and probably nearly bankrupted the band and certain credits and control seemed to nebulously reside with the label ever since Criss died.

Jon talks often about TSO selling missions with the Sarajevo single that Savatage couldn't get arrested with. One has to wonder exactly how much of that is down to the label's decision to not promote or push it for crap... Sorry, excuse me while I pack away my foil hat.