Sophomore vs Debut

[quote="DallasBlack"]

James B. wrote:

It seeems some missed Uncle's premise in the question being this.....The seond release blows the the debut out of the water. Some seem to just like the second better or something like that ?

Pretty self explanatory. If we like the second much better, then it blows the debut out of the water in our opinion. We aren't going to agree on everything (that's what makes this forum so interesting).

yeppers, it's all quite subjective

I was clarifying something I thought was going on, maybe not ?

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Tesla...The Great Radio Controversy over Mechanical Resonance

Whatchoo talkin' bout Willis?

Kings X - Silent vs Gretchen. Both are brilliant but I like gretchen just a wee bit more.

DallasBlack wrote:

There's absolutly nothing wrong with me. I said Abigail, Keeper, and Legacy Of Kings' smoke the debuts because for me it is true. To go a little further, I think Keeper Pt. 2 blows the Pt. 1 out of the water. If you think the debuts are better, good for you. However, your opinion doesn't reign supreme.

My opinion is irrelevant. I also like Abigail a tad more than Fatal Portait, but to say Fatal Portrait is crap as the topic implies - NEVER! I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

stormspell wrote:

DallasBlack wrote:

There's absolutly nothing wrong with me. I said Abigail, Keeper, and Legacy Of Kings' smoke the debuts because for me it is true. To go a little further, I think Keeper Pt. 2 blows the Pt. 1 out of the water. If you think the debuts are better, good for you. However, your opinion doesn't reign supreme.

My opinion is irrelevant. I also like Abigail a tad more than Fatal Portait, but to say Fatal Portrait is crap as the topic implies - NEVER! I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

Oh Fatal Portrait is not in any way shape or form crap, niether are most of the debuts I take sophmore albums over. I just happen to love them a lot more.

I've got a few that come to mind. Don't know if they've been mentioned before, but I don't feel like looking back over 3 pages...

Aerosmith's Get Your Wings > s/t debut
Alice in Chains' Dirt > Facelift
Skid Row's Slave to the Grind > s/t debut
Black Label Society's Stronger Than Death > Sonic Brew
Christian Mistress' Possession > Agony & Opium
Dangerous Toys' Hellacious Acres > s/t debut
Faster Pu$$ycat' Wake Me When It's Over > s/t debut

None of those debuts are any slouches in my book, but I think they got better with the next release.

Skid Row's 2nd album was a huge step above the debut.

Ehhhh....just one very cool guys opinions on what he disagrees with so far, but:

JBall_Z wrote:

Shout at the Devil over Too Fast For Love

NOT!!!! TOO FAST HAS NO FILLER!

S.D. wrote:

King's X - "Gretchen Goes To Nebraska" over "Out Of The Silent Planet"

WELL, THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE GRETCH WAS YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE TO THE MIGHT KX, OBVIOUSLY. MEMORIES WILL NEVER TRUMP TALENT.

Wurthless wrote:

Night of the Blade over Tokyo Blade.

"MARSH" OR "WRIGHT"'S VERSION. HOLD ON. LET ME ANSWER THAT FOR YOU - VOCALLY SPEAKING - MARSH WAS TOKYO BLADE!!!! ARE YOU GONNA SAY BLACK HEARTS WAS BETTER THAN S/T? THANK YOU.

jstate wrote:

As big a fan as I am of Suicidal Tendencies debut, I think Join The Army is an all-time classic.

WELL, THAT IS JUST SAD.... NOW GO GET ME A PEPSI.

Witchfinder wrote:

Skid Row - Slave To The Grind over Skid Row [Will agree with this.., but ripping on the next one - U.S.]
Metal Church - The Dark over Metal Church

IF THE METAL GOD AND DAVID WAYNE GOT IN A FIGHT, WHO WOULD WIN? TRICK QUESTION - DAVID WAYNE IS THE METAL GOD!!!!! TIE-GAME. THIS ONE DOES NOT COUNT.

stormspell wrote:

I mean, seriously, to say that WASP 1984 is crap compared to "Last Command"... man, there is something wrong with the world today!

STORMY WINS ALL OF THE DISAGREEMENTS IN THIS THREAD. THANK YOU BROTHER.

James B. wrote:

It seeems some missed Uncle's premise in the question being this.....The seond release blows the the debut out of the water. Some seem to just like the second better or something like that ?

AND, YES. FAVORITES WAS NOT WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Dangerous Toys' Hellacious Acres > s/t debut

YOU ARE SUPER HIGH...

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Faster Pu$$ycat' Wake Me When It's Over > s/t debut

- SERIOUSLY, CRACK IS WACK....!!!!



Haha - Just one really cool guys opinion, of course. I agree with almost all of these posts. Especially, Wheels over Saxon-s/t. Wow. Con't belive I dismissed that one... Fun thread!!

Quote :

WELL, THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE GRETCH WAS YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE TO THE MIGHT KX, OBVIOUSLY. MEMORIES WILL NEVER TRUMP TALENT.

So I'm assuming you think Gretchen was a huge decline in quality and talent compared to the debut?

I think Gretchen is a definite improvement in performance, songwriting and production. I like Out Of The Silent Planet just fine, but Gretchen is a more mature work and I think one of the best albums from that era.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Alice in Chains' Dirt > Facelift

I was really disappointed in Dirt when it first came out, I liked the debut because it had more stylistic variety. After the first 3 songs or so on Dirt it kind of just plods along like one long depressing song. There was some groove on Facelift that they dropped for Dirt. Facelift is the only album I really like.

S.D. wrote:

Quote :

WELL, THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE GRETCH WAS YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE TO THE MIGHT KX, OBVIOUSLY. MEMORIES WILL NEVER TRUMP TALENT.

So I'm assuming you think Gretchen was a huge decline in quality and talent compared to the debut?

I think Gretchen is a definite improvement in performance, songwriting and production. I like Out Of The Silent Planet just fine, but Gretchen is a more mature work and I think one of the best albums from that era.

Agree that it blows away OOTSP! And I LOVED OOTSP (still do!) but Gretchen was just a huge leap forward. I got into KX with Planet and bought Gretchen as a new release the day it came out. it just blew me away on the first listen and got better everytime I listened to it.

S.D. wrote:

Quote :

WELL, THAT IS ONLY BECAUSE GRETCH WAS YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE TO THE MIGHT KX, OBVIOUSLY. MEMORIES WILL NEVER TRUMP TALENT.

So I'm assuming you think Gretchen was a huge decline in quality and talent compared to the debut?

I think Gretchen is a definite improvement in performance, songwriting and production. I like Out Of The Silent Planet just fine, but Gretchen is a more mature work and I think one of the best albums from that era.

"Definite Improvement"? Out of the Silent Planet was as groundbreaking as Rush - S/T, Metallica - Kill Em All, [hate to say it, but] Venom - Welcome to Hell, Iron Maiden - S/T, etc. How can you improve on the very first of its kind? And, Yes. I will say it out loud, Metallica and Venom were exentions of existing forms. Out of the Silent Planet was its own original form. Does SD enjoy Gretch more? Probably. I think most do. No problem there. Does Gretch BLOW AWAY OOTSP? No F'n way.

A lot of people are simply listing sophmore albums that are just better than the first album. To me, if an album blows the crap out of another album, it pretty much renders that first album unlistenable. Many that have been listed, the first album is excellent, and the second album just happens to be more excellent.

For example. Ride the Lighting. Yes, it is better than Kill 'Em All. But Kill 'Em All still kicks ass. It's not like once RtL came out, there was just no need to listen to KeA any more, in my opinion.

And here's an example that, in my opinion, fits the premise of the thread: Sepultura's Schizophrenia blows the crap out of Morbid Visions. I have absolutely no reason to ever listen to MV again.

Similarly, Sodom's Persecution Mania rages, and I have no need to ever listen to Obsessed by Cruelty again.

But W.A.S.P., Aerosmith, Antrhax, etc. Yeah, pretty much all those second albums are better than the first ones, but the first albums are still great albums. It's not like the sophmore albums here just destroy the existence of the debut. They just improve on them.

After reading all the arguments for or against Sophomore vs Debut I wouuld have to just say that I cant think of any that actually blows the debut away. Except for maybe-

Stryper-Soldiers >YABA

S.D. wrote:

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Alice in Chains' Dirt > Facelift

I was really disappointed in Dirt when it first came out, I liked the debut because it had more stylistic variety. After the first 3 songs or so on Dirt it kind of just plods along like one long depressing song. There was some groove on Facelift that they dropped for Dirt. Facelift is the only album I really like.

Aside from hearing 'Man in the Box' on Facelift, I'm pretty sure Dirt was my introduction to the band, so that ones always gonna hold some nostalgic value for me. I think AiC got better with every album. There's no clunkers at all in their discography as far as I'm concerned.

Quote :

A lot of people are simply listing sophmore albums that are just better than the first album. To me, if an album blows the crap out of another album, it pretty much renders that first album unlistenable. Many that have been listed, the first album is excellent, and the second album just happens to be more excellent.

I guess that's were I was going with my choices. I still enjoy all of the debuts I listed. Just like the sophomore albums a c-hair more. Reading comprehension was never my strong suit. :geek:

Agree with some of the ones already posted. Here's some I didn't notice in my quick read-through...

Scorpions Fly to the Rainbow over Lonesome Crow (Scorps really started to find their sound.)

Aerosmith Get Your Wings over self-titled (love 'em both but with Get Your Wings the band and Tyler really found their sound.)

Angel Helluva Band over self-titled (love 'em both but sophomore was better, more guitar oriented.)

Molly Hatchet Flirtin with Disaster over the self-titled (love 'em both but sophomore rocked harder.)

Blackfoot Flyin' High over No Reservations (although they really came into their own on their 3rd!)

Ultimatum Puppet of Destruction over Symphonic Extremities (shameless plug, but I also happen to believe this!)

Stryper Soldiers Under Command over Yellow & Black Attack (love 'em both but SUC was awesome!)

Saint Times End WAY over Warrior of the Son (better production, better songs, better musicianship!)

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Ultimatum Puppet of Destruction over Symphonic Extremities (shameless plug, but I also happen to believe this!)

Most definitely.

I can't think of a single case where a sophomore album made the debut "unlistenable". I'm a fan of hearing the progression a band takes in their career.

So if the purpose of the thread was finding records that utterly destroy the debut...then I don't think I can agree with any of the choices.

I went with ones I play the sophomore album more.

S.D. wrote:

I can't think of a single case where a sophomore album made the debut "unlistenable". I'm a fan of hearing the progression a band takes in their career.

So if the purpose of the thread was finding records that utterly destroy the debut...then I don't think I can agree with any of the choices.

I was simply pointing out that, in my opinion, most stuff people were listing, while better than the first album, did not "kick the crap out of the debut", as the original post set up: "But what second album actually KICKS THE CRAP out of a bands debut?"

While unlistenable was a stretch on my part, it is, in my opinion, quite a stretch to say that Get Your Wings kicks the crap out of the first Aerosmith album. It's better. But the first Aerosmith album is great.

And that's the thing. You said you wouldn't agree with many of the choices here, if the purpose was to utterly destroy the first album. And that was how I interpret the original post. Because as this thread demonstrates, it's pretty easy to come up with second albums that are better than the first. And probably kind of easy to come up with third albums that are better than the first two.

Coming up with second albums that kick the crap out of the debut, though, is a bit more challenging. But I may be reading this all wrong. As the original poster did say Mob Rules kicks the crap out of Heaven and Hell, and made the point that he considered Heaven and Hell brilliant. So, there's that twist.

S.D. wrote:

I can't think of a single case where a sophomore album made the debut "unlistenable". I'm a fan of hearing the progression a band takes in their career.

So if the purpose of the thread was finding records that utterly destroy the debut...then I don't think I can agree with any of the choices.

I agree. However, for me, very little (and none I still have a hard copy of) is unlitenalbe. I may like more than others but I don't really have anything that makes my ears bleed. The ones I chose have to do with how much more I like the sophmore than the debut. There are others where I like the sophmore more than the debut but they are more natural progression than a giant leap. And another factor has to do with what I've listened to first, as nostalgia seems to play a big part in my preferences.

Don't know if this one got mentioned already (and for my purposes I'm going with the progression forward criteria) - but I thought Death's Leprosy was a giant leap forward from Scream Bloody Gore.

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I was really disappointed in Dirt when it first came out, I liked the debut because it had more stylistic variety

Me too. Dirt did eventually grow on me, but for about ten years after it came out I won't give it a chance based on the initial disappointment. I'm still a huge fan of Facelift.

Def Leppard-High And Dry over On Through The Night, I enjoy the debut, but I felt the band really came into they're own with High And Dry.

Accept:I'm a Rebel over s/t, the debut was decent, but the band didn't really start to find they're sound until "Rebel" ("Save Us" notwithstanding)