Geoff Tate to Rocklahoma, "You Guys Suck"

Eyesore wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

exact33 wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

Why would anyone assume that Tate would win the name? I assume the person with the rights to the name will win it. Of course, nobody knows who that is at this point. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the amount of songs someone writes has ZERO bearing on the control of a band's name. The court will not care at all about that. If this is a partnership with a 4 way ownership then Geoff is SOL. Of course, bands and musicians never organize their business relationships properly or cleanly so this will be a major cluster foxtrot.

thank you. While the songwriting that Tate has added may determine future success of lackthereof, ownership is completely another thing. I am glad he is gone. I think he was ruining the band and was using the name because it was a bigger draw than his.

They'll do nothing of note without him...IMO. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I don't see it happening.

Do you think they've done anything of note since DeGarmo left? I'm not sure if they have. They'll still do festivals and stuff. I don't know, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

While admittedly not commercially successful or engaging as their DeGarmo years, I think both Mindcrime 2 and American Soldier are artistically solid efforts. Neither had DeGarmo and they are the only 2 albums, IMO, where I can hear traces of the intensity and passion that was the hallmark of the 'Ryche we all know and love. They're both well played, well written and well sung.

I am revisiting Tribe as well, since I picked it up used yesterday. I have not heard it in 9 years. DeGarmo co-wrote 5 songs on the album and played on it. It sounds like it could have followed HITNF, to me. It's also not as bad or boring as I remembered it.

I do not own American Solider or Mindcrime II, but I did listen to them.

IMO 'American Solider' was a great album and lyrically a very moving album that took no sides on the issue of war and the then current (still ongoing war) just spoke about the solider's experiences.

"Operation: Mindcrime II' I liked but IMO like most sequels unnecessary, in my case, I don't believe I ever judged the album on its merit but compared it to the original too much, which IMO pales in comparison. Still some solid performances and songs on the disc.

DevZor wrote:

Just to throw it out there, I enjoy the hell out of the new incarnation of accept. I know that doesn't have any bearing on how new 'ryche will do, but it does indicate to me that life without the original singer is doable. Given how successful that venture was I'm not sure why this one is getting written off without hearing a note.

That's how I'm gonna look at this split. Queensryche hasn't done anything that really interested me since Empire. If the new singer injects some new life into the band and they put out a decent hard rock or metal album, I'll get it. If they do nothing and fade into obscurity or release uninteresting albums, I won't miss them in the least. I don't care what Geoff does at this point.

Accept managed to become interesting to me with a new singer. Maybe the same will happen here.

Mindcrime II had its moments, but shortly after the "newness" of it wore off it didn't come off the shelf very often ... I couldn't tell ya the last time I listened to it.

I know every lyric and note of the first "Mindcrime" backwards, forwards, upside down and sideways, I don't think I could even quote a single lyric from "II."

manny wrote:

I do not own American Solider or Mindcrime II, but I did listen to them.

IMO 'American Solider' was a great album and lyrically a very moving album that took no sides on the issue of war and the then current (still ongoing war) just spoke about the solider's experiences.

"Operation: Mindcrime II' I liked but IMO like most sequels unnecessary, in my case, I don't believe I ever judged the album on its merit but compared it to the original too much, which IMO pales in comparison. Still some solid performances and songs on the disc.

And it's kind of telling that the 2 most "Queensryche sounding" albums post-DeGarmo were done mostly by Tate and outside writers with little input from the band.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Mindcrime II had its moments, but shortly after the "newness" of it wore off it didn't come off the shelf very often ... I couldn't tell ya the last time I listened to it.

I know every lyric and note of the first "Mindcrime" backwards, forwards, upside down and sideways, I don't think I could even quote a single lyric from "II."

I am with you!

I personally hope it turns into an Accept situation with some kick a$$ music!

thejokeriv wrote:

Fat Freddy wrote:

Mindcrime II had its moments, but shortly after the "newness" of it wore off it didn't come off the shelf very often ... I couldn't tell ya the last time I listened to it.

I know every lyric and note of the first "Mindcrime" backwards, forwards, upside down and sideways, I don't think I could even quote a single lyric from "II."

I am with you!

I personally hope it turns into an Accept situation with some kick a$$ music!

I would check it out...but I'll be very, very surprised. The difference between Accept & Ryche is Accept still has Wolf Hoffman writing. Wilton/Jackson/Rockenfield don't have enough of a track record of writing IMO...but what do I know?

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

While admittedly not commercially successful or engaging as their DeGarmo years, I think both Mindcrime 2 and American Soldier are artistically solid efforts. Neither had DeGarmo and they are the only 2 albums, IMO, where I can hear traces of the intensity and passion that was the hallmark of the 'Ryche we all know and love. They're both well played, well written and well sung.

I am revisiting Tribe as well, since I picked it up used yesterday. I have not heard it in 9 years. DeGarmo co-wrote 5 songs on the album and played on it. It sounds like it could have followed HITNF, to me. It's also not as bad or boring as I remembered it.

I will admit to liking a number of songs on Mindcrime II, but overall it lacks the intensity of the first one. And this one just kind of putters out at the end, with no real climax. I also didn't find the storyline intriguing. I wish it had maintained that air of mystery the first one had.

But I still say that "Re-Arrange You" is one of the best songs in the Ryche catalog. The album definitely had moments of greatness.

As for American Soldier, aside from "At 30,000 Feet," I think it's a bit of a mess. Too much focus on being profound and not enough on penning quality tunes.

Tribe is a good album, but I was let down a bit because I expected better from them working with DeGarmo again. Decent album, but a step down from Q2K.

I think Tribe is better than Q2K. Q2K has more guitar heaviness, but the songs on Tribe (especially the 5 from DeGarmo) are better I think. I spun Tribe 3 times today and all I could think was "why did I not like this when it came out?"...it's good.

Listening to Dedicated To Chaos now, and...well...I don't know. "Get Started" is just pedestrian rock. "Hot Spot Junkie" is cool musically, but lyrically silly. "Got It Bad" sounds like Geoff trying to write a latter-day Duran Duran song (I like DD, but I don't like this song much). The same can be said for "Higher" and "Wot We Do"...reminds me of Duran Duran. "Around The World" is good, and probably the most melodic song on the album. "Drive" reminds me of Peter Gabriel mixed w/ U2 a little. I think the main problem with this is it being a "Queensryche" album. Were it a Geoff Tate solo album in name, it may be a bit more acceptable. I applaud the experimentation, and don't think the stuff is "bad" so much as "odd". Calling it a Queensryche album does it a disservice, IMO.

Q2K has "Right Side of My Mind," one of their best songs, so it wins in my book. Haha. I was a bit disappointed that starting with Tribe they stopped ending their albums with those kinds of epic songs. You know, "Roads to Madness," "Anybody Listening?," "Someone Else?," "Eyes of a Stranger," "sp00L." Not that they have to end albums that way, but though songs remain some of my favorites.

Eyesore wrote:

Q2K has "Right Side of My Mind," one of their best songs, so it wins in my book. Haha. I was a bit disappointed that starting with Tribe they stopped ending their albums with those kinds of epic songs. You know, "Roads to Madness," "Anybody Listening?," "Someone Else?," "Eyes of a Stranger," "sp00L." Not that they have to end albums that way, but though songs remain some of my favorites.

That is a great song.

On that note, I noticed on Dedicated To Chaos, the last song "Big Noize" wasn't too bad...kinda slow and brooding like that.

Yeah, I still haven't taken the plunge on that album.

Dang! This is a long discussion.

ultmetal wrote:

Dang! This is a long discussion.

If you want the truth, just read my posts.

ultmetal wrote:

Dang! This is a long discussion.

I deserve some type of reward for starting the topic!

Witchfinder wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Dang! This is a long discussion.

I deserve some type of reward for starting the topic!

You get to be Queensryche new manager, btw I hope you know a good lawyer!

manny wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Dang! This is a long discussion.

I deserve some type of reward for starting the topic!

You get to be Queensryche new manager, btw I hope you know a good lawyer!

manny wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Dang! This is a long discussion.

I deserve some type of reward for starting the topic!

You get to be Queensryche new manager, btw I hope you know a good lawyer!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will say that 'At The Edge' went over very, very well live when i saw them.

Found this over at The Breakdown Room (Queensryche fan forum):

Jason Slater (co-writer/engineer/producer on much of Queensryche's last few albums...for better or worse) posts there and here is an excerpt of an interview he did w/ RockPages.br:

Jason Slater wrote:

“Just gonna clarify a couple of facts. Susan takes 1/4 of what any other
manager makes and only manages QR where as any other management company
would take 20% and manage between 4 and 10 bands… I can say with some
certainty that she doesn't make any decisions based on how much $ she's
gonna make.

The biggest problem with that band is they won't get off
their ass but somehow manage not to be able to get outta their own way.
MCII (Mindcrime 2) was a good start at a comeback in retrospect. It was largely made
in a basement by 3 guys that previously didn't know each other and it
was hard work. Some members didn't want to work that way and one refused
to participate in the record. During the entire making of that record
QR's co manager was trying to get me fired because I thought he should
have no musical input. I was getting calls from producer friends of mine
while I was working on the record asking me if I was in Seattle working
with QR and I'd say "yes" then they'd tell me how Lars, QR's manager
had called them asking if they were interested in working on the record.
As it turned out without talking to Susan he and two members that
weren't working on the record were trying to replace me even though the
record was half done and those 2 members have written the least amount
of music in the QR catalogue. Think about what would have happened if
they were successful. Who woulda written the songs? Not them. Dumb move.
Lars was let go shortly thereafter.

Then we move on to Take
Cover and the return of KG (Kelly Gray), IT WAS A F'n DISASTER! He was trying to
throw me under the bus from the first second, I'll post instrumentals on
my blog that were my arrangements, nobody from QR is playing on it yet,
but they KILL the record. They kept my arrangements and creative ideas
but cut me out of the rest of the project. The guy was so threatened by
me he made up problems and did all kinds of childish smurf poo.

Then we come
to AS (American Soldier). I didn't know how this record was going to be made, so I wrote
and recorded the entire thing at my studio. You could have just put
Geoff’s vocal on it and it would have been done. Kelly just wants to
finish the records as fast as he can and get paid, so when I found out
they were bringing him back I was very unhappy, but I knew he'd take the
easy way out and just copy my recordings so he could finish and get
paid. A lot of the art was missing, but the record was still a step in
the right direction.

Enter DTC. I didn't want to work on it,
period. I told them I wouldn't work with Kelly and didn’t want to work
on the record. I thought about it for a few weeks and thought about all
the hard work it took to get us this far and that if we could make a
creative metal record we will have finally given the fans the record
they've wanted and stay true to QR always progressing. I was assured
that my word would over ride KG's. I got out there and was just plain
shut out of the process on all levels. KG was just slamming out crap so
fast I'm surprised the guitars are in tune.....if they are. When all you
care about is finishing so you can get paid you end up with DTC.

We
were building, call it Tateryche if you want, but if you find me a band
that's a true democracy I'll show you some liars. If Geoff doesn't take a
project and make it move forward most of the other guys will sit on
their ass and gather dust.

Prime example of screwing yourself :
Ed Jackson. I've never been anything but cool to that guy. At the end of
DTC he starts blowing all this "f*ck Jason, we're never working with
him again blah blah blah" out of his pie hole. Let’s keep a few things
in mind about Ed, I've given him a percentage of my publishing on every
song I've written for them, not because I had to but because after
touring and merch stop it’s the only income and I don't go on the road
to advertise those songs so they have value. Most songwriters don't do
this. This is the same guy that overplayed so much on MCII that I ended
up playing the majority of the bass on that record and didn’t say a word
until now. When KG forgot to record the bass on the live DVD, I sat
there staring at the footage of Ed making sure my finger movement
matched his so nobody could tell I played it. It was a smurf poo ton of work
that I wasn’t hired to do, I could have just mixed it and there would
have been a low rumble from the bleed of the drum mic's. On AS he has
the same amount of publishing I have! Ed I'm sure you've bought an
iPhone with some of that money I've given you, go to the "Notes" app and
paste this in it and read it everyday”!

Jason's comments are very interesting:

When asked how the writing process goes, Jason Slater recounts his time working with the band on OM:2

Quote :

Well ok then let me preface this with this statement,I CURRENTLY HAVE NO BUSINESS CONNECTION TO QR,SUSAN TATE OR GEOFF TATE AND HAVEN'T FOR ALMOST A YEAR AND A COUPLE MONTHS. Just to clear that up.

So this is how it all worked. I tore my studio in SF apart and reassembled it in flight cases and had them shipped up to Wa. We were supposed to get together with the band to write,but the only people that showed up on any kind of regular basis were me GT and Stoney so I suggested we set everything up in GT's basement so we didn't have to drive to a rehearsal space. This was all with the understanding that we were working all day everyday and anybody was welcome to come and work.

So the 3 of us got to it. The best way to explain how it worked is using a song. Let's use Murderer. The 3 of us were starting to work and GT ran down the story elements and what kind of mood he wanted,we'd pick a tempo,I'd quickly program a drum part and Stoney and I would start kicking parts back and forth and until we hit on sumthin that was creating the kind of mood and vibe he was working on. We'd work our way through a rough arrangement of the song that took us through that section of the story at GT's direction.

I like to work by myself late at night with no distractions,so I'd work through the night and tighten up the arrangement and instrumentation,program a more elaborate drum part etc. GT would come downstairs in the morning and make further suggestions,we'd settle on an arrangement then he and I would start working on programming the orchestra and it was much the same process as the song,he'd make suggestions on where he wanted the strings to get big and what sections of the orchestra he wanted to use. At that point I made him a copy, he'd put a vocal on it and I'd take another pass at the arrangement around the vocal.

From there we'd move on to the next song in the story. On that song I was trying my hardest to use ANYTHING the band brought in so I built section around sumthin Whip had,which was the first five notes in the song........they are all the same notes,an open E I believe,so it was really more of a rhythm I used,but it set up a good riff,I added a turnaround and a couple other notes to put it in a 5/4 time signature to make it feel a little proggy.

All of the songs began with that process.

J.

WHen asked why he didn't lobby for Ryche's second guitar position:

Quote :

Parker wasn't in the picture yet as far as QR went. I can get around almost any instrument,but I could never hang playing QR shows, nor would I want to. It would take a very special project to get me back on the road. So it woulda come down to lobbying for Eds job and A. I had too much respect for the guy to attempt that.
B. that just isn't my style. And lastly I really couldn't handle being in such a dysfunctional situation.

The main reason I ended up writing was that we had a date to finish the record by and All the band members committed to bringing songs in and it just didn't happen. My job is to get the record done end of story, I don't care about band politics or what should be, I gotta deal with what is.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to sit down with the drummer of a new band and tell him he wasn't good enough to play on the record because his timing sucked and we'd blow through the schedule just editing drums if I let him play and I was bringing in a session guy. It sucks,but it's the job. It's just about making the best record I can and there's no room for worrying about feelings.

Geoff by far was the most passionate and committed to gettin that record right, he was there for every moment of creating it.

Further details on OM:2 sessions:

Quote :

The idea was that the guys would use what I wrote as a jumping off point and rewrite what I did staying within the key, arrangement and tempo.....pretty simple task as all the grunt work and hheavy lifting's been done. Whip did show up a few times, but he brought his own portable recorder with him and he never played us what he recorded while we were writing.

We scheduled 2 weeks for each guy in the band to record. Whip was first. We went to a studio in Seattle and he brought every amp and guitar he owned.it took us almost 2 days to get it unpacked and set up. As it turned out the majority of it was in disrepair,so he'd wanna use some guitar and amp he hadn't touched in a decade,we'd set it all up and it would sound like crap cuz the intonation of the guitar was out and the amp had bad tubes in it or had some other problems,so I spent a lot of time intonating guitars and hunting down amp problems,then we spent a bunch of time trying to dial in a tone he liked.

That got done,and at this point I'm pretty excited having been a QR fan since I was a kid and now I'm getting to record Whip! Enter one of the most disappointing moments of my life......he hadn't listened to the songs and did no work leading up to his 2 weeks in the studio. I try to walk him through the parts,but he wasn't getting a hold of any of the rhythms. I tried to hold his hand through it,like "why don't you try a riff like this to replace the original?" basically trying to inspire something and honestly he was more into taking pictures of his gear now that it was all set up in one room,or he'd put a System of a Down CD and lament that they should me making records like that. It was kinda like he'd do anything but sit down and work.

The times we'd get moving and make some headway he'd wanna switch to a guitar he hadn't touched in a decade and change the tone,so out came the tools and I'm playing guitar tech again and by the time I was done he'd wanna leave. After a few days of this I put my foot down, I took the CD player out of the studio,got 3 guitars setup and 4 amps working and said "this is what we're using,let's get to work" and he kinda shut down, it was pulling teeth to get him to work and eventually he just stopped coming.....

I got a few useable parts,but it was so much work and such a ridiculous waste of $........they were capable of accomplishing the task at hand, they just didn't and it was a big bummer, I didn't wanna write that record, I wanted to record the legendary Queensryche.

J.

When confronted with his statement about moving to Tate's basement may have made everyone else uncomfortable:

Quote :

But you gotta remember that this was after two and a half weeks waiting at the rehearsal space they had for months and months, so they were obviously comfortable there and NO ONE EVER SHOWED UP. So it made more sense to move the equipment to the place that the 3 guys who were showing up and working were at.

We called all the guys and nobody objected. A couple of them liked the idea because it was a shorter drive for them. They all did show up from time to time and I'd play them everything and they acted enthusiastic,but still never participated.

At one point Susan asked me if I'd go to Whips and try to work with him at his studio and it was similar situation as at the studio we rented, only none of his equipment was set up so I wired his studio up for him ,but then it was back to playing CD's by other bands and doing anything but record, we spent hours and hours trying to get a guitar tone for writing demo's,it was crazy.

Anyways, long story short he had plenty of opportunities and we bent over backwards.i wanted him writing on that record,but at the rate he was going I didn't think he was capable for whatever reason. I woulda slept at the rehearsal space if they were showing up and participating on any level,I've done it for much lesser bands,but a month in it was clear it was gonna be a 3 man show.

So I cant hop on board the "he was uncomfortable" thing, cuz if that were true he woulda blown my wig off with incredible songs during the 5 days I spent at his studio. All I heard was the one song,and I don't know why I'm spacing it,but they were using it at the end of every show As a teaser,and I have no idea who actually wrote and played on that song,cuz I didn't see the ability to write a song like that without outside help in the entire time I worked with them.

J.

On why Tate rejects/refuses songs from other members (someone posted a link to demos Wilton/Rockenfield did):

Quote :

[If] those are the songs/riffs I'm thinking of we got those while we were mixing....
.about a year late hahahaha......

benefit of the doubt,maybe they are different,but I never saw anything good get turned down,in fact Ed (Jackson) wrote Circles and I didn't really think it was a song and tried to talk GT outta using it,but he dug it and it filled a spot in the story. Ya gotta remember the story dictated the music and not the other way around.

J,

If that dude is telling the truth, it begs the question, why did Geoff Tate stay with these lazy bastards for so long?

We get it, you're on Tate's side! Haha.

I've read those before, and there's no doubt that the band was an enormous dysfunctional relationship. But it's easy to talk about how people acted, but one has to question why they would act that way. There is no reason given. I mean, the entire rest of the band, why would they act that way?

There's a key something missing to this puzzle, you know.

Eyesore wrote:

We get it, you're on Tate's side! Haha.

I've read those before, and there's no doubt that the band was an enormous dysfunctional relationship. But it's easy to talk about how people acted, but one has to question why they would act that way. There is no reason given. I mean, the entire rest of the band, why would they act that way?

There's a key something missing to this puzzle, you know.

I just came across these today...I had no idea and thought I'd share.

Yeah, Slater isn't a fan. Haha.