Kirk Hammett is "one of the worst guitar players I've e

snooloui wrote:

Sounds like you can't respect someone's work if you don't like them. It is MY OPINION that Metallica and Kirk Hammett are overrated.

See there, I fixed it for you.

Temple Of Blood wrote

Quote :

Winger's songwriting is horrible

That is an opinion

Temple Of Blood wrote

Quote :

It's not about which I personally prefer, it's just true.

The context can be construed as prefrence but the inclusion of "true" places the statement in a denotative application. Thus stating it as factual.

I don't even want to get into this discussion - Saying that Kirk Hammett can't write a good solo is just idiocy. I love how all those who bash him aren't guitar players themselves.

Reb is a great player who continues to progress and after the first two Winger albums they stopped being a corporate hair band. Kirk is a great but overrated player who has gone stale. All IMO.

If you listen to the freakin epic solo of "One", "Fade To Black", "Welcome Home", "The Day That Never Comes", and any solo off Kill 'Em All and say they are "horrible"....then you just don't like guitar solo's. '

And SpectreFat - That statement is dubious - Kirk rarely used wah for the first four albums. And there are lots of AMAZING and awesome solo's on the Black Album. Just take the solo in Enter Sandman, and even better - The solo in "The Unforgiven"....

Both are excellent musicians but their stules are night and day, the only thing that Reb Beach and Kirk Hammett may have in common is they are both Michael Schenker fanboys.


I personally much prefer Metallica over Winger, while it seems both bands are everybody's favorite whipping boy, I feel both bands play in their in style and do it very well.

Reb Beach maybe techinally superior to Hammett but I have enjoyed most of Hammett's guitar solos over the years.

Mglaffas81 wrote:

I love how all those who bash him aren't guitar players themselves.

Except for Reb Beach...

ultmetal wrote:

snooloui wrote:

Sounds like you can't respect someone's work if you don't like them. It is MY OPINION that Metallica and Kirk Hammett are overrated.

See there, I fixed it for you.

How could I miss that? Thanks

S wrote:

And thanks for not knowing how to spell "conceding"...

And your whole argument hangs on ad hominem and internet typos. Flimsy stuff.

snooloui wrote:

Sounds like you can't respect someone's work if you don't like them. It is fact that Metallica and Kirk Hammett are overrated.

Not true. I can identify talent even if I don't like what they are producing. I gave an example before with HELSTAR/Billy Joel. I'd rather listen to HELSTAR pretty much any day of the week but Joel is the far superior songwriter.

This thread wasn't about them being overrated (which I agree with), it is about Kirk being "terrible".

I wouldn't kick either out of my band But I would require Kirk to play like he did right out the gate with Metallica. IMHO Kirk didn't have to progress because as history has shown, everything they released after "Justice" was big $ for the band. Most who lose the hunger, fail to strive as players cause either they dont' want to or in Kirk's case... did not have to.

Temple of Blood wrote:

snooloui wrote:

Sounds like you can't respect someone's work if you don't like them. It is fact that Metallica and Kirk Hammett are overrated.

Not true. I can identify talent even if I don't like what they are producing. I gave an example before with HELSTAR/Billy Joel. I'd rather listen to HELSTAR pretty much any day of the week but Joel is the far superior songwriter.

This thread wasn't about them being overrated (which I agree with), it is about Kirk being "terrible".

Your right, but you yourself said "Winger's songwriting is horrible", which is an opinion and has nothing to do with Kirk's guitar playing.

And BTW, Reb Beach is a MONSTER guitarist. It's a shame (artisitically, not financially) that he was stuck in that band playing over Kip's songs.

Temple of Blood wrote:

S wrote:

And thanks for not knowing how to spell "conceding"...

And your whole argument hangs on ad hominem and internet typos. Flimsy stuff.

My argument stands. It is my opinion that James Hetfield is not as good a songwriter as Kip Winger. Pound for pound, on even ground, Kip would eat him alive. I'm not saying I think James is bad, mind you...I'm a Metallica fan...I just think that Kip is an better all aound musician/writer.

You, on the other hand, like to (attempt to) make your opinions come off as fact when A- you haven't the authority and B- you should know better. I get that you like Metallica better...I get that you think James is a better writer...but for you to say flatly that Winger are "horrible" songwriters (which you stated as fact) than follow that with "it's just true" (which you stated as fact) completely nullifies your position.

Learn how to use phrases like "I think" or "I believe" or "IMO" or "from my point of view" once in a while...you'd save me a lot of time picking you apart.

I'll settle this:

- It is YOUR OPINION that Winger are "horrible songwriters"
- It is MY OPINION that Kip Winger has superior skills to James Hetfield as a songwriter
- It is YOUR OPINION that I have no argument
- It is MY OPINION that your head is so far up your own ass (of your own free will) that you refuse to see it

There...all better.

More ad hominem. Your de facto argument I see.

I am inclined to like melodic hard rock when it is done well. I don't automatically prefer thrash. There is a lot of thrash that I can't stand.

If Winger's songwriting was actually good I would give them credit despite their commercial leanings and horribly uncool band name. They have some good songs, sure. But overall are they as creative as Hetfield? No way. Have they inspired as many people to imitate them? Not a chance. Even METALLICA's cover song reinterpretations show better arrangement skills.

Like I said when the previous Winger video was posted, it sounds like they are following a rule book of what clever songwriting entails and it falls completely flat because there is nothing genuine underneath all the layers of stuff. And the hooks are just weak. Post that recent video, that was a really great example. I wanna make that exhibit A.

James B. wrote:

Temple Of Blood wrote

Quote :

Winger's songwriting is horrible

That is an opinion

Temple Of Blood wrote

Quote :

It's not about which I personally prefer, it's just true.

The context can be construed as prefrence but the inclusion of "true" places the statement in a denotative application. Thus stating it as factual.

I thought I explained it right here pretty well ? Shawn put it more in a demonstrative fashion, verbatim.

Temple of Blood wrote:

More ad hominem. Your de facto argument I see.

You're priceless...first you attempt to make flat statements about a band's songwriting like you're some sort of authority on the subject (not just as a fan with an opinion) then you get all huffy and repetitive when you're picked apart for it. Ult, me, snooloui...all telling you the same thing. You're the one who stated a supposed "fact" you cannot prove...I just stated an opinion of a hypothetical situation.

Classic...

In case some are taking notes

an example of ad hominem

1. Person A makes claim X.
   
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
   
3. Therefore A's claim is false.
   

No, you suck!

Quote :

If Winger's songwriting was actually good I would give them credit despite their commercial leanings and horribly uncool band name. They have some good songs, sure. But overall are they as creative as Hetfield? No way. Have they inspired as many people to imitate them? Not a chance. Even METALLICA's cover song reinterpretations show better arrangement skills.

Again...making statements with faux-authority...classic. You have no foundation for making any of these statements. You are not an authority on creativity, or arrangement skills, or what is good or not good...

Despite what you may think, you only know what you like and don't like...you don't "know" anything else.

S wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

More ad hominem. Your de facto argument I see.

You're priceless...first you attempt to make flat statements about a band's songwriting like you're some sort of authority on the subject (not just as a fan with an opinion) then you get all huffy and repetitive when you're picked apart for it. Ult, me, snooloui...all telling you the same thing. You're the one who stated a supposed "fact" you cannot prove...I just stated an opinion of a hypothetical situation.

Classic...

I don't mind at all if you disagree. In fact, I expect people too and to describe why they do. No problem at all.

It's when people rely on ad hominem attacks that I find it to be completely bogus and childish.

Tell me all the reasons/examples/what have you of why you think Hetfield is inferior. I am geniunely interested in reading them. No problem at all.

The fact vs. opinion discussion is one for another thread and why I haven't elaborated on it here. I wanted to stick with the Winger vs. Metallica discussion for this thread.

Temple of Blood wrote:

More ad hominem. Your de facto argument I see.

I am inclined to like melodic hard rock when it is done well. I don't automatically prefer thrash. There is a lot of thrash that I can't stand.

If Winger's songwriting was actually good I would give them credit despite their commercial leanings and horribly uncool band name. They have some good songs, sure. But overall are they as creative as Hetfield? No way. Have they inspired as many people to imitate them? Not a chance. Even METALLICA's cover song reinterpretations show better arrangement skills.

Like I said when the previous Winger video was posted, it sounds like they are following a rule book of what clever songwriting entails and it falls completely flat because there is nothing genuine underneath all the layers of stuff. And the hooks are just weak. Post that recent video, that was a really great example. I wanna make that exhibit A.

So you think Winger: have a horribly uncool name, are crap songwriters, can't write good hooks, have shallow songs, write songs using "The Rule Book of Clever Songwriting", haven't inspired anyone and have poor arrangement skills.
That doesn't sound very respectful. If you don't like a band that's fine, but when you insult everything they do, that's not nice.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I don't mind at all if you disagree. In fact, I expect people too and to describe why they do. No problem at all.

Well, good.

Temple of Blood wrote:

It's when people rely on ad hominem attacks that I find it to be completely bogus and childish.

Attack? I'm not attacking you...this isn't personal. I'm stating opinions.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Tell me all the reasons/examples/what have you of why you think Hetfield is inferior. I am geniunely interested in reading them. No problem at all.

I think Hetfield is a great rhythm player. I think Hetfield is a talented songwriter. I just think Kip Winger is more dynamic, diverse and more deeply versed in actual songcraft and composition than Hetfield is. I think that Kip Winger could learn/play any Metallica song you throw at him and even write one that's just as good as anything James has done. On the other hand, I do not think that James Hetfield is flexable enough musically to play any Winger song you throw at him OR write one. All of my opinions are based on the output of both bands as filtered through my ears.

Temple of Blood wrote:

The fact vs. opinion discussion is one for another thread and why I haven't elaborated on it here. I wanted to stick with the Winger vs. Metallica discussion for this thread.

The fact vs. opinion debate comes up in almost every thread you post in...I wonder why that is?

Okey dokey, this is going nowhere.