State of the Scene...

Oh, pay to play is dumb. You don't make plumbers pay to fix your toilet.

I think it's sort of a matter of irony: this is the get-it-yesterday age for some reason, nobody can even sit down to take a **** anymore..and so whether they like it or not, when the movie first comes out, the theater is the only ticket to seeing it, thus box office sales are consistently up. Oddly enough, it seems like not as many people complain about Hollywood corporate in the same way as people complain about the music industry, and some people even will say they know a movie sucks, it looks lame, et al et al........ and yet plop down the cash for it anyway out of boredom...amazing.

I know people who download movies before they come out but I think Hollywood has worked harder to keep that to a minimum.

Put it this way. For the price of you and yer woman to go see a movie and then walk away WITHOUT a copy to watch again u can buy a CD that can last a lifetime if u take care of it and u can listen to it at will any time:)

So true which is why I own so many cd's. Now if I could get her to want to listen to them too.

Here's something I wrote not long ago that deals with this. You aren't the only one angry about the pay to play scenario.

http://reapingmetal.blogspot.com/

MetalChaz wrote:

lol yes you did indeed and yeah I could use yer help overthere too lol

i was just playing bout hurting my feelings.proud to voice my opinion on CMR!! see ya there!

I've always wondered why more bands don't just cut out the middleman and promote and organize their own local shows. Get four bands, pool the cash, rent out a club or a bar, go from there.

In essence, the bands are their own promoters. Sure there's a financial hit up front, but that's no different than a "regular" promoter. And if people turn out, the bands reap the rewards.

Paying to play is nothing new. It was going on all through the 80's in Hollywood. Too many times, we payed for the cost of the tix the promoter gave to us upfront. Then sold all the tix to friends, family and folks. Then those same ticketholders were turned away the night of the show cause the club was already full. Sure we made our money back and the promoter/club made money. But in the long run the people realized they were taking a chance and it soon became difficult to get rid of tickets at all. The worse thing about this practice was that the headliner wasn't liable for ticket sales cause the band name was enough to bring lots of fans to the club. Too many musicians thought I have to play The Troubador, The Roxy, Gazzarri's and all those places to make it big. They just got ripped off.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I think it's sort of a matter of irony: this is the get-it-yesterday age for some reason, nobody can even sit down to take a **** anymore..and so whether they like it or not, when the movie first comes out, the theater is the only ticket to seeing it, thus box office sales are consistently up. Oddly enough, it seems like not as many people complain about Hollywood corporate in the same way as people complain about the music industry, and some people even will say they know a movie sucks, it looks lame, et al et al........ and yet plop down the cash for it anyway out of boredom...amazing.

And actors are incredibly overpaid!

Troublezone wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I think it's sort of a matter of irony: this is the get-it-yesterday age for some reason, nobody can even sit down to take a **** anymore..and so whether they like it or not, when the movie first comes out, the theater is the only ticket to seeing it, thus box office sales are consistently up. Oddly enough, it seems like not as many people complain about Hollywood corporate in the same way as people complain about the music industry, and some people even will say they know a movie sucks, it looks lame, et al et al........ and yet plop down the cash for it anyway out of boredom...amazing.

And actors are incredibly overpaid!

And they are typically (over)paid in advance. Whereas a band starts out in the hole and only makes money after their debt to the record label is paid off, actors get paid upfront and depending on the contract can make even more if the movie is successful.

Can you imagine what the movie industry would be like if the actors only got paid after the debt was paid?

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I think it's sort of a matter of irony: this is the get-it-yesterday age for some reason, nobody can even sit down to take a **** anymore..and so whether they like it or not, when the movie first comes out, the theater is the only ticket to seeing it, thus box office sales are consistently up. Oddly enough, it seems like not as many people complain about Hollywood corporate in the same way as people complain about the music industry, and some people even will say they know a movie sucks, it looks lame, et al et al........ and yet plop down the cash for it anyway out of boredom...amazing.

And actors are incredibly overpaid!

And they are typically (over)paid in advance. Whereas a band starts out in the hole and only makes money after their debt to the record label is paid off, actors get paid upfront and depending on the contract can make even more if the movie is successful.

Can you imagine what the movie industry would be like if the actors only got paid after the debt was paid?

Well, it would weed out the one's that do it for money and the one's that love to act.

Yep

James B. wrote:

Paying to play is nothing new. It was going on all through the 80's in Hollywood.

It was done through out the San Francisco Bay Area as well. It's nothing new. If you're a local band playing when you play you should be building your 'mailing/contact list' so when you play again You can contact your fans so they can buy tix from you. Once you build your popularity locally people will be contacting YOU to find out when you're playing next. Then you can dictate what you will and won't do, then the promoters will be ASKING you to play... am I wrong?

When Soldier played with Y&T, LeatherWolf, Riot, Bloodgood, TNT ect... the band had to sell tix(usually 100 if I'm not mistaken broken up between four guys was 25 a piece). Unlike Hollywood if you bought a tix you got in. It's part of paying dues ain't it?...

That the business side of the music business.... I realize this is an unpopular position but it's the reality. At least at a club level...

As far as Cornerstone goes (which I think is what Chaz had been originally refering to) I would agree C-Stone shouldn't charge the BANDS to play there.... If CStone wants you come and play the invitation should be we can pay the band or not, sell your product to cover some of your expenses...

In a perfect world there wouldn't be the financial woes either from illegal downloading or labels who rip bands off, or promoters who rip bands off.

The reality is that us fans of Heavy Metal and especially Christian Metal are part of such a narrow subgenre I don't know how we get around it.... At least at this point....

I know many of you guys will be critical of me and what I'm saying but I've lived through this and at a point where 'Christian Bands' were barely tolerated in the clubs....

I'm sure many of you have had different experiences than I....

Yeah Im with you man......I completely understand from the point of view of what I call a "garage band" just starting out and hoping to get noticed, signed etc. However that is a whole different thing than what I am reffering to.

With Jacobs Dream we are no HUGE band or anything like that. However we have put out 5 albums around the world and devolped a pretty strong international following through the years. Weve been on Metal Blade Records, went on tour with Armored Saint, played with the Scorpions, traveled to different parts of the world where people actually had to buy tickets to see us etc. Am I bragging or something? NO there are a million bands that are bigger than us. However my point is that we are no garage band. Weve paid those dues ages ago and we are deffinatley big enough to not have to pay for the right to dawn a stage unless we are opening for Maiden or Mettallica. lol

http://www.teethofthedivine.com/site/blog/show-me-the-money/

Excellent read, Shawn, one of the best I have ever read on the subject.

good blog,shawn,good points made! but,i think what has frosted me and chaz on this subject was the whole idea of a promoter/venue asking a band to come up w/ money in advance to buy up a chunk of tix and then attempt to sell them back to the venue!! i made several key points in my other posted on the other forum how i personally feel and how it affects the band i represent.i think you agree with me when i say that if you(as a musican/band) dont have the passion and enjoy what you do;its pointless! bands will never earn a living at this anymore!! agreeing further that with the internet;it can help promote a band/musican or hurt them!!

MetalChaz wrote:

Yeah Im with you man......I completely understand from the point of view of what I call a "garage band" just starting out and hoping to get noticed, signed etc. However that is a whole different thing than what I am reffering to.

With Jacobs Dream we are no HUGE band or anything like that. However we have put out 5 albums around the world and devolped a pretty strong international following through the years. Weve been on Metal Blade Records, went on tour with Armored Saint, played with the Scorpions, traveled to different parts of the world where people actually had to buy tickets to see us etc. Am I bragging or something? NO there are a million bands that are bigger than us. However my point is that we are no garage band. Weve paid those dues ages ago and we are deffinatley big enough to not have to pay for the right to dawn a stage unless we are opening for Maiden or Mettallica. lol

I hear what you're saying and I understand it.... COMPLETELY! But I must ask when Jacob's Dream left Metal Blade and went independent and now signed to Retroactive is it possible that on a business aspect that might not have been a good move?

Simply put I can go to several local music shops and find Metal Blade releases, but not one Retroactive Release. I'll see As I Lay Dying and Rob Rock but not Deliverance or Ultimatum or

My point simply being is even tho Jacob's Dream is alive and well is it possible that the metal public is not aware or responding to the band as they have in the past? And because of that it's almost like you guys are starting all over again?

Also because of how lousy American Radio is and the american audiences usual transferance to the latest and greatest the style of metal that JD play and so many of my favorites is rather out of vogue (which I'm sure you're aware of... lol)... You did mention the bands popularity in Europe. I would mention Saxon as a prime example... They are HUGE in Europe still yet for the most part unknown here in the states... especially with metal heads between the age of 13-21.... A tragedy imo....

Just some thoughts not to cause anger or start a fight... I want to see the emergence of so many metal acts like Jacob's Dream, Ultimatum, Liberty N Justice just to name a few....

Bro I hear your frustration and disappointment. I get it.....

Rock on Chaz!

Retroactive is an independent label with limited distribution. While Metal Blade is also independent, they have big distribution backing them up, thus the reason you can find them in most stores. You can find Retroactive releases in some stores. The label is growing and Matt is hooking up with bigger and better things. Eventually you may even see Retroactive releases on the shelves of Walmarts and Best Buys.

However, even when JD was on Metal Blade, I never saw them in the stores. Sometimes being on an indie label is better for a band. MB offers very little for their smaller bands. Retroactive works very hard for all their bands. Most bands I know one Metal Blade have made nothing and have nothing to show for their work, nor do they own the rights to their music. With Retroactive, they give us product and they do not own the publishing rights to our music.

Also, while I cannot speak for JD, my guess would be that their parting ways with MB was a bad decision. It was most likely a mutual parting of ways. MB was doing very little to promote JD from what I saw and I don't think they were selling much more units through them than they possibly can through Retroactive.

Just some food for thought on your post mr.electric.

ultmetal wrote:

Retroactive is an independent label with limited distribution. While Metal Blade is also independent, they have big distribution backing them up, thus the reason you can find them in most stores. You can find Retroactive releases in some stores. The label is growing and Matt is hooking up with bigger and better things. Eventually you may even see Retroactive releases on the shelves of Walmarts and Best Buys.

However, even when JD was on Metal Blade, I never saw them in the stores. Sometimes being on an indie label is better for a band. MB offers very little for their smaller bands. Retroactive works very hard for all their bands. Most bands I know one Metal Blade have made nothing and have nothing to show for their work, nor do they own the rights to their music. With Retroactive, they give us product and they do not own the publishing rights to our music.

Also, while I cannot speak for JD, my guess would be that their parting ways with MB was a bad decision. It was most likely a mutual parting of ways. MB was doing very little to promote JD from what I saw and I don't think they were selling much more units through them than they possibly can through Retroactive.

Just some food for thought on your post mr.electric.

Right with you there Ult.... I'd be curious to know what their sales prior and now are....

I do love Retroactive by the way(I'm sure you figured that already tho....) Matt does indeed bust his butt to get it done... It's cool to hear that you still own the publishing to your songs.

It would be great to see Retroactive/Bombworks stuff in a larger distrubution pool.

By the way working on a review to Perilous right now..... sweet stuff....

about walmart! i worked for the company up until my med leave.i had an "in" with my electronics/music distributor.she told me several years ago that a band was welcome to put several copies for sale in her dept.but,they would not make any attempt to obtain them from the record label.nor,could i sell any cds to assiocates while at work or post any signs advertising a gig even if the artist agreed to donate procedes to walmarts charity(childrens miracle network)if i had a cd in my locker that i would play on break/lunch i would have to have a receipt;(some of my cds were gifts from family or bands.)or i could not bring them to the store;policy would say they were stolen.even if the store didnt carry them.i was also told that walmart wished to distance themselves from the christian music market altogether.
also,store had a yard sale in the parking lot and if you paid the 10.00 fee again it went to charity.i asked if a band could set up a table to sell merchandise and was told no as this would be considered competitive.

bottom line,ult,pray you are right about matt distributing the cds of our favorite retroactive artists(one guess..what mine is!! lol!) because of the huge market and profits would be in walmarts hands; would be a great place to go as walmarts continue to put small "ma and pa" christian book stores out of business!

i will be watching this move by matt very closely as a former assiocate and as a promotional manager!

manny wrote:

Excellent read, Shawn, one of the best I have ever read on the subject.

Thank you, sir...

Qoute...I hear what you're saying and I understand it.... COMPLETELY! But I must ask when Jacob's Dream left Metal Blade and went independent and now signed to Retroactive is it possible that on a business aspect that might not have been a good move?

To a degree I would say yes. I was the only guy who wanted the band to remain signed. The other guys felt that we had a strong enough following that we could go Indie and cut out the middle man. In the end it was a dissaster. The album we did independantly bassically fell flat on its face. We went to Germany last year where we are very popular and most of them were not even aware that the album existed! So yeah going indie wasnt good in my opinion.

QOUTE>>Simply put I can go to several local music shops and find Metal Blade releases, but not one Retroactive Release. I'll see As I Lay Dying and Rob Rock but not Deliverance or Ultimatum or

My point simply being is even tho Jacob's Dream is alive and well is it possible that the metal public is not aware or responding to the band as they have in the past? And because of that it's almost like you guys are starting all over again?

Yes and no. The strong European audiance that was built durring the Metal Blade years is still itching for new material. So...all Matt has to do connect with that Market and our fans dont care if we are on fartknocker records they just want a new JD album lol

QOUTE>>Also because of how lousy American Radio is and the american audiences usual transferance to the latest and greatest the style of metal that JD play and so many of my favorites is rather out of vogue (which I'm sure you're aware of... lol)... You did mention the bands popularity in Europe. I would mention Saxon as a prime example... They are HUGE in Europe still yet for the most part unknown here in the states... especially with metal heads between the age of 13-21.... A tragedy imo....

You are right we are not nearly as big here in the states as we are are in Europe. That is a given. I actually think that we are well known just enough in America to do a decent gig here and there.

As for our sales, Metal Blade did place us in stores. When Drama Of The Ages came out I went to Best Buy and there it was I think 5 or 6 copies. The problem was(at least in the states)that once they sold out many times they would not re stock

ps..I was the one who talked the guys into going with Retroactive....Si I too hope that what Ult said is right. Either way it sure beats going indie....

ultmetal wrote:

However, even when JD was on Metal Blade, I never saw them in the stores. Sometimes being on an indie label is better for a band. MB offers very little for their smaller bands. Retroactive works very hard for all their bands. Most bands I know one Metal Blade have made nothing and have nothing to show for their work, nor do they own the rights to their music. With Retroactive, they give us product and they do not own the publishing rights to our music.

This is all true accept for JD albums not being in stores as i was easily able to locate them in stores at least where I live. However as for eveything else that was said here is true. They pushed us hard in Europe and some other countries but did very little to introduce us in the States.


Also, while I cannot speak for JD, my guess would be that their parting ways with MB was a bad decision. It was most likely a mutual parting of ways. MB was doing very little to promote JD from what I saw and I don't think they were selling much more units through them than they possibly can through Retroactive.

We sold a lot more than most people realize in Europe. However we had so much debt to be owed to the label due to touring expenses that were to be paid as well as paying back studio advancements. This is why the band started producing the albums themselves.