I'm sorry for misleading you all...apparently I am not a real man!

No, I don't think Jesus would approve.

I find it utterly sad that the guys who perpetrate this stuff feel justified when they anger people. Look at the updated post:

PatriotsUnderGodcom wrote:

LOOK at the comments; why does this "issue" ANGER others? Music
is a gift of God, to use it to serve the flesh FIRST and foremost, and
then try to wrap the Gospel into it, although with 'sincerity of
heart', is still serving one's FLESH and looking like the WORLD.

There
is no HATING other Christians in this message; Biblical Christianity is
OFFENSIVE to the world, and contrary to the desires of the flesh.
Pruning to purge us from the lusts of the flesh in order to produce
fruit HURTS.

"Come out from among them and be ye separate";
filling a niche, and looking like the WORLD is not biblical separation
- knowing the WORD and obeying it is.

Jeff backs up his beliefs
with SCRIPTURE; he researched the topic because he was convicted and
concerned - THRASH is not a proper, responsible, holy, and mature
presentation of the Gospel!

Are you being transformed into the
image and likeness of Christ, or pulling down Christ to your own image
and likeness. God has something to say in His Word about our APPEARANCE
as professed representatives of His church.

The Young People
need to watch some PAUL WASHER also. Jeff is not the only one who has
spotted this trend in America...this is why our nation is experiencing
judgment...for IDOL worship - and giving God lip-service.

This guy actually feels justified in angering people. He feels that the MUSIC is the reason people get angry over the issue. It's not the fact that he's insulting people's intelligence. It's not the fact that they are twisting the Bible and distorting facts to make their point. It's not that he's calling us "limp wristed" and saying we are not "real men."

No, it's that the music has "fed the flesh" and this makes people angry. How blind people can be by their own self righteousness. It's no wonder the world can't see Jesus in the church. We are too busy tearing down our own and judging on outward appearance to show any real love to the world.

What exactly does "the world" look like? Perhaps a true Christian should dress like a monk to "avoid the appearance of evil" and so that we can truly "come out from among them and be ye separate"?

Lord help our disbelief and forgive us for trampling on your will.

ultmetal wrote:

He feels that the MUSIC is the reason people get angry

Of course it is. Remember Deliverance's "It's The Beat?"

"IT'S THE BEAT -- that causes the flesh to give in!"

It's such a warped view of life. Where do people get this stuff? It's certainly not what the Bible teaches.

What exactly does "the world" look like? Where does the Bible teach that Christians are to look a certain way, to have short hair, wear a suit and tie, etc.? What does having this look have to do with being a true Christian, or a "real man"?

It does not teach this at all. Rather it teaches we are to disassociate ourselves from the world and it's mindset – to separate ourselves and live righteous lives.
We are not to do the sinful things other do or associate with those sinful things.

In context:

Quote :

¹⁴Do not be yoked
together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness
have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? ¹⁵What harmony is there between Christ and Belial^[b]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? ¹⁶What
agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the
temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and
walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."^[c]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."^[d]
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

scott,your last two posts make such great points.if we believe as christians to be of the world and not in it.then,it has to be a call on how we live our lives in doing that.as metal musicans you are always going to catch flack whether it is the way you dress,the style of your hair or the music(sound and lyrics) and yea,least i forget..playing bars and nightclubs! if christ has asked us to be the salt and also his light we need as a metal musican to reach the lost where they are.i totally agree;sadly,its the christians that are tearing down christians.jesus taught parables at the level people of his day.we have allowed satan to rule the metal world for so long;its him we fight him most to gain it back.music touches everyone a certain way.metal is no different from praises sung in church.its where the heart is and if a metal musican screams,growls etc to make his praise to the lord then,who are we to judge his music and his band.true story..a local christian metal band played a gig a a club..this dude came close to the stage.got the bouncers attention.the band held them back.infact the lead singer invited him on stage to sing along with him.dude did.then he grabbed the mic and told the crowd he was a soldier recently back from iraq that had been invited out to hear the band.he dropped to his knees before the stage and cried he needed jesus in his life.the guys in the band layed down the instruments.in the words of my friend that relayed this story."you could have heard a pin drop.the band layed hands on this dude and prayed.folks from the bar walked over and did the same.the only sound one could hear was the prayers of the band and that of the sobbing dude as he accepted christ into his life and heart".dude walks out of the club,even hugging the bouncers telling them;he had accepted jesus.so i ask you was it the church.no,it was the message presented in song and music by a christian metal band.they didnt preach,they didnt read the scripture.merley allowed their message of christ be seen and heard thru their music and lyrics and were prepared to go the next step and help the dude find that relationship.that is the metal musican!! amen! it doesnt matter how we dress or sound.gods word will never come back void.the message of salvation will get thru.metal musicans treat their gigs as their metal mission field and are prepared to handle such circumstances! in these last days we must continue to press forward and do the work that god has called all of us to.no matter what the job.pls pray for your metal musicans in the faith.lift up their words,music and message.pray for more and more opportunities to present the gospel no matter where/when god calls them too.god bless you,scott,for your strong committment and your faith as well as that of your band! you have a warrior here and she will fight by your side!!!!!!!! ps.sorry it was long...

Thanks Scott for putting it how the "rubber hits the road" so to speak.

One aspect of the prison ministry band I am involved in plays at California Youth Authority (CYA) facilities. At these "outreaches", the music is definitily "harder and faster" as a whole than what we do at a CDC (California Dept. of Corrections) facility. God can use anything as a tool and for His glory. Those who can't grasp that concept or refuse to believe it are the type of folks that I say place God in a box (great song by Xalt by the way) and will always have strife in thier walk and thier life. Basicily they are placing limitations on what God's will and power is and taking any effectiveness from thier ministry. The principal of reaping and sowing usually weeds these fellowships away. My point being, the Chaplan(s) at the CYA faciltities have stated how effective our music has been in sharing not only the love of Christ, but how God has a plan for the lives of those kids. They respond to that more than some dude in a suit and a tie "yelling" at them about sin and pointing the finger. For most of them, the wards of the state, that is why they are locked up in the first place. Just a response to somebody not loving on them in a position of authority in thier lives.

Sad how a personal conviction / vendetta against anything keeps a person from being used by God to do the work of His Kingdom. Sheesh, after all these years, I thought that is what we strive to do ?

Another response:

PatriotsUnderGodcom wrote:

Ultimatum is not the FOCUS of the video - interesting how
everyone avoids the issue of holiness - and IDOLATRY - no one is saying
they are homosexuals (nor any of the other pictured so-called
Christian-thrashers); the IMAGES and PUBLIC PHOTOS of ALL MUSICIANS
SHOWN display a contrast between worldly appearances, and a "credible"
appearance as ambassadors for Christ.

It is effeminate to wear
your hair like a woman, and accessorize yourself with jewelry if you
are a MAN. It is an abomination to how God made you!

Are there people outside of the U.S. that think like this? This strikes me as such an American false gospel. Where in the Bible does it say we need to have short hair and wear a suit and tie, or be a tough soldier figure to be "a real man" and "be holy". Where in the Bible does it say that holiness has anything whatsoever to do with hair, cloths, music, food, etc.?

I suppose the pastor in Africa wearing traditional African clothing would not be representing God? The Native American Christian with his long hair in a braid is not representing God because of his "effeminate hair"?

What these dudes dont realize I think, is that even if you do have short hair and wear suits....your still conforming to a worldly angle, its just not one easy to target like long hair and oh so evil "rock n roll".

What I say to folks who push the doctrine of "PatriotUnderGodcom" is I guess the fruit of my 22 years as a Christian musiacian that have led thousands to the Lord is worthless and invalid cause I played a certain type of music or had a certain appearance. When we stand before God and give account the life He has given....I doubt it has anything to do with my hair once being down to my @$$. Even it God had an issue with that ? He'd still love us.... wow what a concept.! One that too many who claim somethng fail to have discernment regarding it's wisdom.

ultmetal wrote:

Another response:

PatriotsUnderGodcom wrote:

Ultimatum is not the FOCUS of the video - interesting how
everyone avoids the issue of holiness - and IDOLATRY - no one is saying
they are homosexuals (nor any of the other pictured so-called
Christian-thrashers); the IMAGES and PUBLIC PHOTOS of ALL MUSICIANS
SHOWN display a contrast between worldly appearances, and a "credible"
appearance as ambassadors for Christ.

It is effeminate to wear
your hair like a woman, and accessorize yourself with jewelry if you
are a MAN. It is an abomination to how God made you!

Are there people outside of the U.S. that think like this? This strikes me as such an American false gospel. Where in the Bible does it say we need to have short hair and wear a suit and tie, or be a tough soldier figure to be "a real man" and "be holy". Where in the Bible does it say that holiness has anything whatsoever to do with hair, cloths, music, food, etc.?

I suppose the pastor in Africa wearing traditional African clothing would not be representing God? The Native American Christian with his long hair in a braid is not representing God because of his "effeminate hair"?

I think you're unfortunately right, Scott, that it's an American false gospel. Whilst there's certainly a conservative focus in the evangelical churches in Australia (like Hillsong -where its ministers wear the latest fashions.... so by PatriotUnderGod's definition, they must also be of the world), there is not the same vilification or division that the Christian metal scene is attracting in the U.S. If there is a misconception, people are more open-minded about it, and don't reflect the 'three-piece suit' middle-class Christianity promulgated in the U.S.

Being a Jew to a Jew, a Gentile to the Gentiles comes to mind, as does the idea that holiness comes out of a person. The arguments from those Christians who oppose you are the same as twenty years ago, and reflect an untra-conservative viewpoint -"as long as you're middle-class, white, vote Republican, pro-military and not merry, you can be saved. If you are anything else, you're in big trouble". They've truly made God in their own image, and no amount of reason will dissaude them.

Sutekh wrote:

I think you're unfortunately right, Scott, that it's an American false gospel. Whilst there's certainly a conservative focus in the evangelical churches in Australia (like Hillsong -where its ministers wear the latest fashions.... so by PatriotUnderGod's definition, they must also be of the world), there is not the same vilification or division that the Christian metal scene is attracting in the U.S. If there is a misconception, people are more open-minded about it, and don't reflect the 'three-piece suit' middle-class Christianity promulgated in the U.S.

Being a Jew to a Jew, a Gentile to the Gentiles comes to mind, as does the idea that holiness comes out of a person. The arguments from those Christians who oppose you are the same as twenty years ago, and reflect an untra-conservative viewpoint -"as long as you're middle-class, white, vote Republican, pro-military and not g ay, you can be saved. If you are anything else, you're in big trouble". They've truly made God in their own image, and no amount of reason will dissaude them.

Great post, especially the second paragraph.

It makes me very proud that my children and friends came to my defense. How sad his defense of this nonsense in his blog...

Quote :

Ultimatum is not the FOCUS of the video - interesting how
everyone avoids the issue of holiness - and IDOLATRY - no one is saying
they are homosexuals (nor any of the other pictured so-called
Christian-thrashers); the IMAGES and PUBLIC PHOTOS of ALL MUSICIANS
SHOWN display a contrast between worldly appearances, and a "credible"
appearance as ambassadors for Christ.

It is effeminate to wear
your hair like a woman, and accessorize yourself with jewelry if you
are a MAN. It is an abomination to how God made you!

LOOK at the
anger in the comments? As though attacking Jeff Godwin is not throwing
stones? Jeff Godwin's testimony is that he personally cleaned himself
up by God's grace - after admitting he was on the wrong path.

The Bible is the final authority - and Jeff has cited it repeatedly in all his presentations.

Music
is a gift of God, to use it to serve the flesh FIRST and foremost, and
then try to wrap the Gospel into it, although with 'sincerity of
heart', is still serving one's FLESH and looking like the WORLD.

How absurd to say that the Holy Spirit works through THRASH? - unintelligible SCREAMING is not how Christ would approach anyone.

There
is no HATING other Christians in this message; Biblical Christianity is
OFFENSIVE to the world, and contrary to the desires of the flesh; this
message is particularly offensive to those who perhaps need to address
a false profession.

I had one for 16 years, primarily because
I was led to pray a prayer - but NEVER told that forsaking the world is
the FRUIT, the evidence that I am a new creature - truly born again.

God
has something to say about being MISREPRESENTED in fleshly endeavors,
and watered-down sermons that do not condemn worldly lusts. He calls it
lip-service and abomination.

Pruning to purge us from the lusts
of the flesh, and the WORLD in order to produce fruit HURTS. Dealing
with idol worship is usually the MOST PAINFUL - I didn't enjoy it, and
I too have a long way to go.




"Come out from among
them and be ye separate"; filling a niche, and looking like the WORLD
is not biblical separation - knowing the WORD and obeying it is.

Jeff
backs up his beliefs with SCRIPTURE; he researched the topic because he
was convicted and concerned - THRASH is not a proper, responsible,
holy, and mature presentation of the Gospel!

Every day the
believer must ask himself; am I being transformed into the image and
likeness of Christ, or pulling down Christ to suit and excuse my own
image and likeness.

God has something to say in His Word about our APPEARANCE as professed representatives of His church.

The
Young People need to watch some PAUL WASHER also. Jeff is not the only
one who has spotted this trend in America...this is why our nation is
experiencing judgment...for IDOL worship - and giving God lip-service.

So
much of American Christianity is a joke - and such a strong rebuke of
Jeff's observations, as well as mine, is equally prideful. Knowledge of
the Word is what is lacking, and America is perishing as a direct
result of it.

Quit defending the indefensible - forsake childish
lusts. This is a commentary on BEHAVIOR - not any speculation, nor
judgment of souls - "ye shall know them by their fruit" - this type of
music, and rock concerts is THE WORLD.

Apparently, our daily conforming to the image of Christ has more to do with how we look, how we wear our hair, the music we listen to, and the way we present ourselves than it does being a good father, husband, friend, neighbor, etc. Such a strange way to interpret holiness.

I wonder if this man eats nothing but bread and drinks nothing but water? Anything else would obviously be "feeding the flesh". If I like spicy Mexican food, I am not conforming to the image of Christ.

You shall know them by their fruits. Indeed!

Crazy stuff - here's a "fun" read from the wife of the head of a cult called sovereign grace ministies about how women should dress - it's call a "modesty" check list. Crazy, crazy stuff - wait until you get to the stuff about "purse straps" causing "temptation" to men.....

[size=12][size=12]First, it’s time for a heart check…
“How does a woman discern the sometimes fine line between proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the
intent of the heart. A woman should examine her motives and goals for the way she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of
womanhood? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshipping God? Or is it to call attention to herself and flaunt her beauty? Or worse, to
attempt to lure men sexually? A woman who focuses on worshipping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart will dictate
her wardrobe and appearance.” -- John MacArthur
\ What statement do my clothes make about my heart?
\ In choosing what clothes to wear today, whose attention do I desire and whose approval do I crave? Am I seeking to please God
or impress others?
\ Is what I wear consistent with biblical values of modesty, self-control and respectable apparel, or does my dress reveal an
inordinate identification and fascination with sinful cultural values?
\ Who am I trying to identify with through my dress? Is the Word of God my standard or is it the latest fashion?
\ Have I solicited the evaluation of other godly individuals regarding my wardrobe?
\ Does my clothing reveal an allegiance to the gospel or is there any contradiction between my profession of faith and my practice
of godliness?
So, I’m ready to leave the house, but I still have to do a modesty check. What are some things I should look for as I stand in front of my mirror?
Starting at the top…
\ When I am wearing a loose-fitting blouse or scoop neck, can I see anything when I lean over? If so, I need to remember to place
my hand against my neckline when I bend down.
\ A word on purse straps: How could a purse possibly be a modesty concern? When you’re wearing the strap across your chest.
Regardless of the shirt you’ve got on, this accentuates your chest and creates a temptation for men.
\ If I am wearing a button-down top, I need to turn sideways and move around to see if there are any gaping holes that expose my
chest. If there are, I’ve got to grab the sewing box and pin between the buttons.
\ Am I wearing a spaghetti-strap, halter-top, or see-through blouse? Not even pins will fix this problem! Most guys find these very
unhelpful. It’s time to go back to the closet.
\ Can I see the lace or seam of my bra through my shirt? In this case, seamless bras are a better option.
\ [size=912]One final shirt check: Does it reveal any part of my cleavage? Does my midriff show when I raise my hands above my head? Is
my shirt just plain too tight? If the answer is “yes” to any one of these questions, then I need to change my outfit.
[/size]\ Are my arms or any part of my body exposed by see-thru or sheer covering?
Moving on down…
\ Does my midriff (or underwear) show when I bend over or lift my hands? If so, is it because my skirt is too low? Either my shirt
needs to be longer or I need to find a skirt that sits higher.
\ I also have to turn around to see if what I’m wearing is too tight around my derriere, or if the outline of my underwear shows. If
so, I know what I have to do!
\ The “sit-down” check applies to my skirt or dress as well. And I must remember to keep my skirt pulled down and my knees
together when I’m seated.
\ And speaking of skirts, watch out for those slits! Does it reveal too much when I walk? Pins are also helpful here.
\ Before I leave, I need to give my skirt a “sunlight check.” Is it see through? If so, I need a slip.
\ Finally, I must remember to do this modesty check with my shoes on. High heels make my dress or skirt appear shorter.

\ And don’t forget – this all applies to formal wear as well.[/size][/size]

Joker, you might wanna fix the size/spacing on that stuff you pasted... I'm old and don't have my magnifying glass handy.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Joker, you might wanna fix the size/spacing on that stuff you pasted... I'm old and don't have my magnifying glass handy.

Fixed!

Geez man, and how long is that checklist supposed to take to go thru anyway??

A couple of things :

Quote :

' Music
is a gift of God, to use it to serve the flesh FIRST and foremost, and
then try to wrap the Gospel into it, although with 'sincerity of
heart', is still serving one's FLESH and looking like the WORLD.

How absurd to say that the Holy Spirit works through THRASH? - unintelligible SCREAMING is not how Christ would approach anyone.'

The bible says make a joyful noise unto the Lord, not what the noise should sound like, etc.

Quote :

'It is effeminate to wear
your hair like a woman, and accessorize yourself with jewelry if you
are a MAN. It is an abomination to how God made you!'

The Bible talks about alot of things, etc hairstyle for men is not among them. In the Bible one of the few times a man's hairstle is referred to is to Samson, who from descriptions in the Bible the man had long hair, and I do not recall to many folks calling him effeminate.

Also jewelry is not discussed and Solomon was a king who in the Bible was not only known for his wisdom but for possessing a little bit of bling bling.

Finally this tragic waste of oxygen does not even respond to his own blog but has one of his lotion boys to type in answer.

I seriously question the mind of a person that looks at this photo of Ultimatum and thinks we look "effeminate".



If we look "effeminate" we certainly are some UGLY chicks!

Is Alan Tuma wearing eyeliner in that pic?

ultmetal wrote:

I seriously question the mind of a person that looks at this photo of Ultimatum and thinks we look "effeminate".



If we look "effeminate" we certainly are some UGLY chicks!

I think the green eyed monster has reared his ugly head.

You guys look ready to kick someone's a**, far from "effeminate"

note to scott,keep lifting and you will look like samson!!! lol! everyone has brought up some great points..i am just going to say(since i posted a very long post last time!) that i agree with everyone of you! to the band, i for one are proud that you are my friends.proud for your committment to your lives,family and faith and most of all your music! i will be honored and be blessed to be a warrior that will stand beside you and defend you!!

Stender wrote:

Geez man, and how long is that checklist supposed to take to go thru anyway??

Long enough so by the time you've gone through it, it's too late to get out of the house anyway, so you have to stay home like a modest, obedient Christian lady.

ahhhhhhh! just throw on the jeans,pin the hair up and throw on that Ultimatum tshirt and you are ready for anything!!! whats the big fuss??? lol! rotfllmro!

This man has posted a new blog today and taken down the old blogs, as
well as one of the videos. Apparently he saw some truth in the things
people were posting. That's good.

Quote :

(I have removed the video REAL MEN because I saw the inference
being made that all men with long hair are simply homosexuals, I do not
believe, nor imply that - however, effeminate behavior and appearance
is not natural for a man)

For Kristiant007 & her "side";

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.

This false gospel that has gripped America has invited
God's judgment upon this nation, you criticize me, or Jeff; you simply
are in disagreement with the SCRIPTURES, not our mere opinion or
"taste" in music.

Any "clergy" or pastor that endorses this
fleshly garbage, would allow it in their church, or turns a blind eye
to its youth "worshiping" in such a manner better heed Christ's words
in Matthew 18:6.

The word "offend" in that verse is "skandalizō" - Christian rock & thrash is a SCANDAL - the word means...

1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaphor: to offend

a) to entice to sin

b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey

1) to cause to fall away

The
flesh-serving Christian church is Laodicea - and WISE believers seeking
Him will repent and HEAR the pleading of the Holy Spirit through Jeff's
evangelical efforts - through the preaching of the WORD to back up his
objections to this flesh-serving, money-making racket.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%...

Our desire is that ALL these musicians REPENT!

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that
believe.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall
they hear without a preacher?

The answer is not that they will
hear of Him and believe on Him through a ROCK CONCERT, unintelligible
screaming, pictured demons, sensuality, and men who wear a uniform in
defiance of God's natural laws regarding gender, and a plain morality
that speaks to maturity and credibility, in order to catch the
attention of young minds and plant seeds that a Satanic balance of
serving the flesh is tolerable in the sight of a holy God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The SPIRIT behind the music under the microscope here is not the Holy Spirit...because Christian rock serves the FLESH.

I
had a false profession of faith for 16 years because I was led to pray
a prayer at a para-church camp at age 14, and was impacted emotionally
to affirm I was a Christian watching the girls cry on the bus on the
way home while listening to Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant songs -
emotionalism was the fruit of those decisions.

FEW of us have
come out of that - pursued by the Lord in his sovereignty - and
IMPACTED by the evangelical efforts of biblically separated pastors and
evangelists who preach the WORD.

I came to Christ after hearing the WORD preached in a fundamentalist, separated, independent church.

Everybody in America is a Christian? - NOT!

Ignoring,
dismissing, rejecting and deeming foolish this message is to your own
peril - you owe Jeff nothing - you owe Christ EVERYTHING; so forsake
your childish lusts.