Thrash vs. Speed Metal...an interesting email.

Hello Scott:

I write to you from Mexico City
to ask your opinion on a subject I deem important. First let me thank
you for your site, which I have enjoyed reading for quite some time now.
I must admit, your religious tone threw me off a little bit in the
beginning but that in no way is a detriment to your site, which seems
like a genuine and passionate work of a life-long Metal aficionado. Your
work is important because it is useful for those of us who consider
Metal worthy of our time and dedication. So thank you again for your
site.

Maybe in another email I would like to engage with you in a polemic
discussion of whether Christian metal is an oxymoron or not. But that’s
for another email.

What brings me to you today is the use of the term “thrash” or “thrash
metal”. What is the correct terminology or the terminology originally
used to describe a metal sub-genre and is the original terminology the
correct one?

We all agree that say, Metallica, Exodus and Testament belong to the same
sub-genre. There seems to be a global consensus on the existing
sub-genres (at least the 80’s ones), but there is controversy on what is
the correct name for that and other sub-genres.

I would like to tell you what I think, but most importantly, I would like
to know what you think about this subject. I would like to know in what
we can agree.

Here is my take on this subject:
I believe that the term “thrash” was originally alien to Metal. I believe
that “thrash” was a term originally used by punk/hardcore reviewers and
musicians to describe a type of hardcore punk and to a point, its
degree of speed and aggressiveness. Two magazines existed back in
1981-82 that used the term Thrash to describe hardcore bands like Mob
47, Terveet Kadet and more importantly hardcore/metal bands like D.R.I.
Those magazines were Maximum Rocknroll and Thrasher magazine. See link
(http://www.killfromtheheart.com/albums.php?id=838&band_id=449).

I would like to propose that the “correct/original” term to describe the
new sub-genre around 1983 that Metallica, Exodus, Megadeth spearheaded
was (and should be) Speed-Metal. Again, Maximum Rocknroll and Thrasher
Mag, referred to these bands and style as Speed-Metal bands.

]It seems to me, though I do not intend to impose my view of things, that the historically correct terminology is as follows:
Thrash → DRI, COC, MDC (some), Suicidal Tendencies (early), Cryptic Slaughter.

Speed Metal → Metallica, Exodus, Megadeth, Artillery, Testament.


I do not contend the fact that the term “thrash metal” is also a correct
term to describe that sub-genre, I do however, contend the fact that
“speed-metal” is not the historically correct to name for the
aforementioned sub-genre. [

I think that there are only six hard sub-genres like there are three hard colors, yellow, blue and red from which a variety of other colors are produced.


These are:
1- Heavy Metal
2- Speed Metal - Thrash
3- Thrash - Crossover aka (crossover-thrash)
4- Death Metal
5- Grindcore
6- Black Metal

Doom Metal and Power Metal to me at least, are not sub-genres but styles or hybrids.

Doom Metal essentially is either heavy metal or death metal played very
slowly; any genre played extremely slow can be categorized as doom
metal, slow grindcore like Prophecy of Doom, slow black metal like
Samael or Alastis etc. Power Metal to me is either Heavy
Metal played with Speed Metal (Thrash) techniques during the first half
of the 80’s or, a lighter more radio-friendly Speed Metal (Thrash) with
Heavy Metal techniques during the second half of the 80’s.

I would like to put it this way; on a Genealogical Tree you only consider
those family members that are blood-related or directly gene-related.
On a Family Tree you might want to include adopted family members and
why not, even friends or neighbors if you feel like it.

In the context of explaining Metal’s evolution, I think of it in two
different ways, a genealogical one and a terminological one. Genealogically
speaking, there are only six real sub-genres. Terminologically there
are as many subgenres as imagination allows, including Salsa-Metal and
Cannibalistic Reggaeton Metal.

Okay that’s enough for one email. I would like to know what is your opinion
on these subjects, and feel free to correct me where you see fit. Thank
you for your time and have a great day.

Cheers,
cotarelo

He's correct that Thrash was originally a term used in the hardcore punk scene that was adopted by Metal. The difference between speed/thrash metal has never been clear and the terms eventually became synonymous, with Speed Metal later falling by the wayside.

His other points are meaningless semantics.

I think he's way overthinking this. Genres are useful to help identify what a band may sound like but there is always change and crossover within any genre. As for the history, it's not that black and white. Interesting letter though.

I'm going to write an entire album of Cannibalistic Reggaeton Metal!

I get this guy's point about a limited number of "hard" genres and everything else being offshoots from those. I might name some of those genres a little differently, but his point is well thought out. His original point about thrash being a punk term initially is fine, but then wouldn't thrash metal be a style that incorporated thrash (punk genre) with metal?

BTW, I think Motorhead embodies that mix of punk and metal better than anyone.

Dark Horseman wrote:

I think he's way overthinking this. Genres are useful to help identify what a band may sound like but there is always change and crossover within any genre. As for the history, it's not that black and white. Interesting letter though.

I agree, he's overthinking. But that has to be one of the most intelligently written emails I've run across in a while.

Good Lord. Split hairs much?

I think he's right about the origin of the terms thrash and speed metal.

Dark Horseman wrote:

I think he's way overthinking this. Genres are useful to help identify what a band may sound like but there is always change and crossover within any genre. As for the history, it's not that black and white. Interesting letter though.

Definitely

Meh, when I think of speed metal, I think of bands like Motorhead, Venom, Exciter, Anvil, etc. As for thrash, well you know...

I can't believe I read that whole e-mail, it was actually fascinating.

This is something I wrote a very long time ago. I was going to
include it on my site, but after posting it, I had some many
comments/disagreements, that I decided not to. It's based more on the
accepted terms of speed metal and thrash, as opposed to the origins of
those terms like you wrote about.

THRASH METAL DEFINED
Thrash metal is a subgenre of heavy metal that generally is credited to
bands like Metallica, Slayer and Exodus. The origins of thrash metal are
traced to the early '80s, when a handful of bands began incorporating the
sound of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM) scene with elements of
punk. Venom, a band who is often mislabeled as black metal, were also one o
the early bands to combine heavy metal with the speed and edge of punk.

Thrash, along with speed metal, are relatively similar in style, but thrash
generally is more aggressive, has more dissonant guitar riffs and sometimes
incorporates harsher vocal styles. Because of this thrash is a bit hard to
categorize. Many bands that were labeled thrash when they began have
explored other terrains or simply have added other influences to their
sound, making the subgenre even more categorized and hard to describe. From
thrash came death metal, crossover, black metal, groove metal, etc. Some
bands have even incorporated non-metal genres such as classical, jazz and
even rap..

For the most part, the musical base of thrash is composed of fast paced time
signatures, fast and sometimes complex guitar riffs, often times layered
with guitar solos. The speed and pacing of the songs is usually what defines
basic thrash metal, along with the aggressive vocals and intense drum work.
Frantic bass drum use is also common.

SPEED METAL DEFINED
Speed metal is a subgenre of heavy metal music that is similar to thrash
metal and has many of the same roots. Speed metal tends to be more melodic
and many times has less harsh vocals, although not always.

'Speed' metal came about several years before thrash in the early 80s. In
the late 70s and early 80s, there was a wave of bands like Motorhead, Raven
and Savage who had incorporated punk and metal and were considered to be
speed metal. Also, bands such as Judas Priest, Exciter and Accept are also
credited with helping start the genre. In a very loose sense, Speed Metal
can be seen as Heavy Metal played at a much faster pace.

One of the earliest speed metal songs is arguably Deep Purple's "Speed King"
(from the 1970 In Rock LP) or "Highway Star", from the 1972 LP Machine Head.
Many consider Helloween's "Walls of Jerico" to be one of the defining albums
of the genre. Some other notable bands would be Helstar, Powermad, Agent
Steel and Reverend, who featured ex-Metal Church vocalist David Wayne. Many
bands now incorporate speed metal and mix it with classic metal. Many of
these bands are now labled power metal. Even in the mid-80's bands who were
generally referred to as speed metal would also be called power metal. Such
is the case with Metal Church.

Distinguishing between thrash metal and speed metal is often difficult
because often bands cross over to each genre. While Metallica were
considered one of the first 'thrash' bands, many consider Metallica to be
speed metal.

HISTORY OF SPEED AND THRASH METAL
It is impossible to say exactly when thrash metal began. Some say it began
with the punk influenced metal of Motorhead, whose self-titled album (1977)
and "Overkill" (1979) albums were hugely influencial to many thrash bands.
Others site Venom's "Welcome to Hell" (1981) or even earlier metal classics
like Black Sabbath's "Symptom of the Universe" (1975). Venom would be a huge
influence on the development of thrash metal as well as black metal and
death metal. Still others list Accept's "Fast as a Shark" (1982) as one of
the first true thrash metal songs with it's steady double bass assault. Of
course just about any speed or thrash metal band is indebted to Judas Priest
who gave us such early speed metal classics as "Tyrant" (1976) and
"Exciter" (1978) . (The seminal version of "Tyrant" was later released on
1979's "Unleashed in the East" with an uptempo drum delivery and a vicious
guitar sound).

Motörhead's "Overkill" LP (1979) would give the name to a New York band that
would write what some consider the first thrash metal song in 1981, "Unleash
the Beast Within". Also the short-lived Southern California garage band
Leather Charm would write "Hit the Lights". Of course, this band would give
way to Metallica with guitarist/vocalist/songwriter James Hetfield, soon
joined by guitarist/songwriter Dave Mustaine. The band Metal Church recorded
a few rehearsal tapes in 1980-81, which were similar to the early Metallica,
though not quite as thrashy. Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich was offered a
spot in Metal Church in 1980 but was later kicked out again. Also on the
scene at the time packing local clubs in California was a band called
Exodus, whose live show would influence another local California band called
Slayer to begin playing faster songs.

The first thrash metal demo may very well be Metal Church's "Red Skies" from
late 1981. An instrumental demo that combined thrash, speed, and power
metal. It was soon overshadowed by their October 1982 "Four Hymns" demo.
Metallica were second on with their "Power Metal" demo (April 1982), then
"No Life 'til Leather" (July 1982) and the first with a studio LP (Kill 'Em
All, July 1983). Their sound was heavily influenced by some of the NWOBHM
bands at the time, especially Motorhead and Diamond Head of which Metallica
would later pay homage to. The "No Life 'til Leather" demo, whose name
influenced the name of this site, would also influence a band rising up in
New York called Anthrax. Of course in the years to follow, Anthrax,
Metallica, Slayer and another band called Megadeth would gain mainstream
success and would be labeled the Big Four of Thrash. Also released in 1982
was the second album by Canadian metal band Anvil titled "Metal on Metal"
with several songs that leaned in a thrashier direction and would be a huge
influence on both the NWOBHM scene as well as the growing thrash and speed
metal genres.

In Europe, Artillery recorded a demo in November, 1983. Their "We Are the
Dead" took a Black Sabbath inspired direction, resulting in a thrash metal
form that was not quite as fast as that of Metallica but had similar riff
ideas. Also released in 1993 was the debut album from Canada's Exciter
("Heavy Metal Maniac"). In the U.S., Slayer released their first studio
album "Show No Mercy". Slayer became a huge influence on the growing thrash
scene in Europe with bands like Sodom, Destruction and Kreator following
their example.

Thrash metal took off in 1984 or so, with Overkill releasing their second
demo "Feel the Fire", and Slayer's seminal "Haunting the Chapel" EP, which
featured the song "Chemical Warfare" which had a darker and heavier sound.
1984 marked the year that thrash pioneers Exodus finally released a full
length album titled "Bonded by Blood". The following year Slayer's "Hell
Awaits" and Overkill's "Feel the Firew" would be released and outside of the
U.S., the German band Kreator released their debut album ("Endless Pain"),
as did Destruction ("Sentence of Death "). That same year Brazilian band
Sepultura released their EP "Bestial Devastation". Also Megadeth, formed by
canned Metallica axeman Dave Mustaine, debuted with the release of "Killing
Is My Business...And Business Is Good!", another hugely influencial thrash
metal album. Anthrax's debut "Fistful of Metal" was released this year, as
was Metallica's seminal "Ride the Lightning," which coincidentally also
featured co-writing credits by Medgadeth's Dave Mustaine. The fued between
Mustaine and his former Metallica bandmates would be one of the most well
publicised fueds in metal history.

In Germany, Running Wild would release their speed metal debut "Gates of
Purgatory" and Grave Digger released their debut "Heavy Metal Breakdown".
While neither of these could be considered thrash, both we important to the
history of speed metal and power metal.

One big force in presenting new thrash bands to the masses in the early 80's
were the Metal Massacre albums put out by Metal Blade Records. These albums
would introduce the world to bands like Metallica, Overkill, Slayer,
Abbatoir, Viovod, Possessed, Nasty Savage, Hirax and Hellhammer.

1985 saw debut releases from Germany's Helloween and Avenger, who would
later rename themselves Rage. Both bands were important to the ever growing
speed metal scene. Helloween in particular would go on to influence an
entire movement of European power metal bands. Just like America had their
"big four" of thrash, Europe had their "big four" of 80's German power metal
which included Rage, Helloween, Grave Digger and Running Wild.

1986 was a landmark year for thrash, with some of the greatest thrash albums
of all time being released in this year. Metallica signed to a major label
(Elektra) and put out what many consider to be their finest recording
"Master of Puppets". Dark Angel put out "Darkness Descends", which is one of
the heaviest and fastest thrash albums at the time. Slayer's "Reign in
Blood" is universally acclaimed as the bands finest, and also German band
Kreator released the highly influencial "Pleasure to Kill", which set new
standards for brutality and would be a heavy influence on the death metal
genre. Megadeth also signed to a major label and released "Peace Sells...
But Who's Buying?", featuring a video that would take off on the new and
popular music video format MTV. Nuclear Assault, featuring an ex-member of
Anthrax debuted with the punkish "Game Over". Hobbs' Angel Of Death emerged
from Australia, playing a brand of thrash metal drawing heavily on early
Slayer, yet geared towards the European market. Cacaphony released their
"Speed Metal Symphony" this same year and featured guitarist Marty Friedman
who would soon join the ranks of Megadeth.

In 1987 Anthrax released their renowned "Among the Living" album. While
Anthrax's own music, was considerably more melodic than other more
progressive thrash bands, they were nonetheless labled thrash, as opposed to
punk, probably due to the prevalent punk influence.

Thrash metal developed in the mid 1980s to split into many subgenres and
influenced a lot of bands like Death and Possessed. Many still argue which
of these two bands were the first death-metal bands. Some bands combined
speed metal and thrash metal, like the aforementioned Megadeth, and also
Helstar, Testament, and Heathen. Watchtower's Energetic Disassembly (1985)
was an underground favorite and set new standards in technical, jazzy
songwriting, as did bands like Coroner and Annihilator, which would lead way
for technical death metal bands like Atheist and Cynic, as well as later
efforts by the aforementioned Death.

By 1987 and '88 or so the genre was quite saturated with new bands with
major labels like Atlantic and Epic jumping on the thrash metal bandwagaon.
Many classic albums would emerge from this time from bands such Testament
and Vio-lence. Another band out of California would buck the system and
present a whole new take on thrash metal. Vengeance, later renamed Vengeance
Rising, released their first demo in 1987 and soon after the seminal "Human
Sacrifice" CD which matched the intensity of many of the the already
established thrash bands but had lyrics that were based out of the Bible,
rather than the darker lyrics generally associated with the movement.
Several bands followed soon after including Believer ("Extraction from
Mortality" 1989) and Deliverance (1989). Bands like Metallica and Megadeth
began expanding their sound. "Rust in Peace" (1990) by Megadeth is sometimes
thought to be the band's last classic thrash metal album, and to this day it
is still thought to be one of Megadeth's finest works. Also Metallica
released their fourth album "...And Justice For All" (1988) , after the
death of original bassist Cliff Burton. This album included longer songs,
more progressive songwriting and what at the time was considered James
Hetfields' best guitar riffs. The album also has the bands' first video, the
World War 1 themed song, "One."

The early 90's would see an virtual sea of new bands putting out thrash
metal with major labels and independent labels alike releasing albums.
Labels like Combat and Roadrunner were known for their roster of thrash
bands, while labels that helped start the scene in the early 80's like
Megaforce were soon snapped up by the majors. Even punk bands like Suicidal
Tendencies and D.R.I. had crossed over to a thrash direction. By the
mid-1990's thrash was at a stale mate and many of the popular bands
including Metallica, Megadeth and Slayer were moving in different
directions, while many other bands were forced to quit altogether. Grunge
and alternative became the flavor of the day. Metallica released two albums,
Load (1996), and Re-Load (1997), that had more rock and alternative songs.
Despite their massive success, many of their core fan base felt the band was
selling out and catering to trends. Anthrax as well, departed with longtime
vocalist Joey Belladonna and released an album that moved away from the
thrash sound with former Armored Saint vocalist John Bush. Megadeth were
also experimenting with more radio friendly sounds in the late 1990s.

Thrash metal has made something of a comeback in the late 1990s. Many bands
like Overkill and Slayer were still forging on, while some of the bands who
had given up were reforming and have released new albums. Bands like
Kreator, Exodus, Death Angel, Destruction, Sodom and Nuclear Assault have
all seen new releases that are usually critically acclaimed by thrash fans.
Even Megadeth returned with a 'comeback' album, The System Has Failed which
while not 'true' thrash, was a hybrid of thrash and power metal.

The music that is known as Thrash has a big punk influence. So the name fits.

In the very early days the terms "thrash metal" and "speed metal" were more or less inter-changeable, at least in my area, so I've never lost sleep about what differentiates one from the other.

I think it's kind of easy to differentiate thrash from speed, despite the various links between both disciplines

That's probably the most pointless email I've ever seen.

Thrash is derivative of speed metal, as bands were using speed as a musical device before bands started identifying with the more aggressive tendencies and punk antics associated with thrash.

Bands like Raven, Motorhead, and Accept are often cited as precursors to the thrash metal movement despite being neither entirely speed or thrash, but still utilizing elements of both in their respective sounds.

speed







thrash



seems fairly simple to me..

I don't know. Is Rage speed metal or just fast power metal?

Dark Horseman wrote:

I don't know. Is Rage speed metal or just fast power metal?

That's funny because I almost said the same thing. Rage were power metal. They walked that fine line between thrash and traditional heavy metal, not unlike Metal Church.

Also, I know many people who say REALM are a speed metal band. Haha! Gotta love the genre wars.

I think we should change the name of this board to "Bitching About Sub-Genres".

S.D. wrote:

I think we should change the name of this board to "Bitching About Sub-Genres".

Haha! Ahhh, it's all in good fun. We're all serious metal nerds, so we have serious metal nerd discussions.

Always viewed Rage as an example of speed metal, on "Perfect Man" at least, with early Scanner, Angel Dust and Helloween's first.

It's confusing, just like there is European Power Metal (The Helloween to Edguy stuff) and American Power Metal (apparently Savatage is a part of it.

Metal has turned into so many categories it became a joke. Even the discography of a band has been turned into categories, like Blind Guardian at first being Speed Metal, then Power Metal, then Symphonic Metal, then Power Metal again. For me, they always sounded the same until 1995, call it Speed or Power...it's metal, nothing else.
There's even a difference between european and american power metal and such, it's too much.

I don't think there's much difference between Thrash Metal and Speed Metal, maybe the first has a bit more influence from Punk (but so had Iron Maiden on their first Album and they were still lumped into the same category as Saxon and Def Leppard)

I think most of it is OK, I don't think it's too much, it's very interesting to converse about it and see what came from where and even why/how....of course you could argue very well that I also have a mild form of OCD, so ymmv.

Also, record-buying-public won't buy it unless it sounds like at least one of their favorite bands, and then they can complain about how there's no original music left, so yes, we need labels.

I enjoy it as long as nobody gets their panties in a twist.

Fat Freddy wrote:

In the very early days the terms "thrash metal" and "speed metal" were more or less inter-changeable, at least in my area, so I've never lost sleep about what differentiates one from the other.

Same here. I love it all, no matter what you call it.