Thrash vs. Speed Metal...an interesting email.

They way I've always seen it, thrash and speed metal are one and the same.

I have my own definition of it,

If the music is simply molded out of early Metallica, Slayer, Exodus or a combination of the three, you know, that tight staccatto chugging/galloping riffing , I'd simply call it Thrash

But if it's NWOBM-ish with elements of early Megadeth, Exciter, Metal Church etc etc it's Speed Metal,

There's just no way those two are one and the same

Here's a tune from a well known band from outside the genre - which could be considered by some, to be a prototype of early speed metal or even thrash (circa 1977):

Grimmo wrote:

Here's a tune from a well known band from outside the genre - which could be considered by some, to be a prototype of early speed metal or even thrash (circa 1977):

Absolutely. Like I said in that little write-up, Deep Purple had some great proto-speed metal as well.

oh my soul it's a long wwaaay, where you're from it's a long way!

You know, I barely hear of many bands that are truly considered speed metal as opposed to bands that are considered thrash. The only big examples of speed metal bands I know of are Exciter, Venom, and Running Wild.

"Speed metal", the way the internet has defined it, is really a niche genre like Christian metal or something.

EmoElmo wrote:

I have my own definition of it,

If the music is simply molded out of early Metallica, Slayer, Exodus or a combination of the three, you know, that tight staccatto chugging/galloping riffing , I'd simply call it Thrash

But if it's NWOBM-ish with elements of early Megadeth, Exciter, Metal Church etc etc it's Speed Metal,

There's just no way those two are one and the same

See that's exactly my point.

There is no doubt of the existing differences within subgenre and styles (there may be substyles within a genre without being too different merit a separate category) or another way to put it:

There IS consensus between the existing sub-genres. We all agree Metallica, Exodus and Testament belong in the same sub-genre.


The question is what is the CORRECT name for that particular sub-genre?


To avoid subjective opinion we can only resort to History. So the question is, which is the historically correct term?

Which term was originally used to describe which sub-genre?

I try to avoid an emotional stance (I'm right you're wrong) and prefer to uncover what is correct or true based on proof.

It seems to me that "proof" or historical records, favor the supposition that Speed Metal was ORIGINALLY used to describe the type of music that eventually would be called Thrash Metal.


According to some research on my own, I have found that the term Thrash was ORIGINALLY used to describe hardcore punk.


Take an apple for instance. The question is not whether we should classify it in the fruit category or the vegetable category; we all know it is a fruit. Say in 100 years apples are going to be called "roundredgroids" and bananas "laryellogroids", the dillemma will not be whether they are fruits or vegetables but how they were ORIGINALLY called.


"You know son? I remember my great-grand father called roundredgroids "apples", isn't that funny?"
"I can't imagine dad, that's wrong! The word Apple is now used to describe a type of vegetable, are you telling me that Apples are fruits?"
"No son, back in my day, apples were what you now call roundredgroids which are clearly fruits and what you now call Apples is clearly a vegetable"
"You're confusing me dad, I think I'm gonna teleport me out of here".


Proposition:
Back in the day Speed Metal was what now is called Thrash Metal.
What is now called speed metal is nothing but speedy punkish heavy metal, a style of heavy metal but not a different sub-genre { see first sentence}.


To me Venom is punkish NWOBHM, Exciter is punkish heavy metal and Running Wild is also punkish heavy metal, nothing more nothing else.
But I definitely respect your point of view and I am in no way saying you're wrong.

The problem with 'history' is that over time definitions change. If we were going to use history to define heavy metal, then bands like Kiss, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, UFO, Ted Nugent, Aerosmith, Thin Lizzy, Scorpions, Deep Purple, would be the standard for heavy metal. These were some of the earliest bands to be called heavy metal when the term was being coined in the 1970's. However, by modern definitions, people would say that most of these bands are 'hard rock' and would vehemently argue that they are not metal bands.

Hardcore punk bands like D.R.I., The Accused, Suicidal Tendencies, etc. are now commonly referred to as crossover bands. You'd be hard pressed to find a metal fan that wouldn't call Metallica, Exodus, Slayer and Testament 'thrash metal' bands.

Oh, and welcome to the Heart of Metal board.

'Kill 'Em All', 'Bonded By Blood' and 'Reign In Blood' IMO were the landmark albums that defined THE Thrash metal sound, you hear a 5 - 10 second intro you know it's thrash or a variant of such, but with Speed Metal it's extremely different and difficult to tell

Personally, the sound of 'Speed Metal' is still a mystery to me, I mean, can anybody really differentiate a Speed Metal riff from a Heavy/NWOBHM riff?

EmoElmo wrote:

'Kill 'Em All', 'Bonded By Blood' and 'Reign In Blood' IMO were the landmark albums that defined THE Thrash metal sound, you hear a 5 - 10 second intro you know it's thrash or a variant of such, but with Speed Metal it's extremely different and difficult to tell

Personally, the sound of 'Speed Metal' is still a mystery to me, I mean, can anybody really differentiate a Speed Metal riff from a Heavy/NWOBHM riff?

I've always thought speed has that "airy" guitars above fast, "monotonous" drumming.

yep,..fairly straightforward, not quite as 'staccato' as thrash, and more melodic in the vocals, but not necessarily as...what's a good word..... 'produced' as something like symphonic power metal..and lots of riffs!


Ahh, Scanner.................... Rage..

kill 'em all defines thrash metal. its that new wave of brit heavy metal riffing with the speed and aggression of punk. that's what thrash is. metallica, exodus and slayer defined it!
and ult, don't get us started on that definition/history of heavy metal discussion again!!! uugghhh!!!

Dark Horseman wrote:

I think he's way overthinking this. Genres are useful to help identify what a band may sound like but there is always change and crossover within any genre. As for the history, it's not that black and white. Interesting letter though.

seriously

In my neck of the woods when I was a kid (Sacramento area) thrash was what the skaters listened to. Suicidal Tendencies, Ministry, etc....but once I came here years ago, I had to reprogram as I saw everybody referring to all my "speed metal" bands as "thrash." At first I thought this was an insult....going off my previous opinion. I remember having this argument with Scott and few others a couple times! LOL! But now, I call speed metal thrash and have taught my boys the same as well. They say this all the time to they're teenage friends and they always rooster their heads like a puppy dog.

Now Scott, about your whole religion thing....

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

yep,..fairly straightforward, not quite as 'staccato' as thrash, and more melodic in the vocals, but not necessarily as...what's a good word..... 'produced' as something like symphonic power metal..and lots of riffs!


Ahh, Scanner.................... Rage..

Since every German played in some band in the 80s, judging by the amount of traditional ones, I always keep wondering why there were so few of them who played that kind of music. After trying to sound like a heavier Scorpions they decided to go into some strange kind of atmospheric quasi-progressive in the 90s (and it was good). But Y U NO play speed metal

Just want to say "very interesting discussion". It is clear that our individual metal backgrounds filter and affect our perceptions of all these things...looking back. Although, history sometimes makes it more confusing (as Ult referenced...I remember in the 70's a band like Queen was labeled as Heavy Metal. Even Paul Reno from Loverboy wanted to be considered Heavy Metal. Sammy Hagar had "Heavy Metal Noise" and some called his music heavy metal) but as time goes on things change and we try and clarify them better. But we only seem to make it more confusing by having to draw tighter and tighter definitions/guidelines.

But like I said, it is cool to hear everyone's perceptions regarding this. In the end it is all metal. I remember seeing an interview with Lee Altus from Heathen back in the 80's and he denied being 'thrash' arguing that they were just 'metal'. I remember thinking "What are you talking about? You are totally thrash!!" But who really cares because the music was the same. Dave Mustaine initially denied being in a "thrash band", when he helped create the genre. There was the cassette titled "Speed Kills" which had lots of 'thrash' bands on it. There was a cassette comp titled "Death Metal" that had Helloween, Running Wild (and a couple of other german (to be later labeled power metal) bands on it).

Regarding the terms "speed' and 'thrash' I think it is very difficult as the terms have been applied to various bands at various times. Although I think there is a difference in the styles, but a band can incorporate many different styles. For me, imo, good examples of 'speed metal' would be: Venom, early Attacker, the first Helloween, and Rigor Mortis.