Was Dave Mustaine the father of thrash metal?

Troublezone wrote:

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Trash

Is the h button not working?

You learn well, my young padawan.

Temple of Blood wrote:

kmorg wrote:

Overkill's song "The Beast Within " was apparently written as early as 1981, but wasn't recorded 'til their first "Power in Black" demo, taped between March and September of 1983.

I don't think anything counts until it is recorded. I mean, Mustaine wrote stuff in his pre-METALLICA band PANIC but who can verify how thrashy it was?

I'll check out that OVERKILL demo. I think I heard it a while back and it didn't make much of an impression.

I also have the first Exodus demo from 1982. The song "Warlords" is def. a thrash song.

I agree with you metalinmyveins, the best thing that ever happened to both Metallica and Dave Mustaine's career was Mustaine being letting go, the combination of four strong personalities of Mustaine, Hetfield, Ulrich and Burton, and what seemed to be young Mustaine having something to prove due to his upbringing, if he had remained in the band I am sure the band imploded during the 'Kill 'Em All Tour'.

Mustaine is not a team player, nothing wrong with that, but Metallica is a band led by two guys, but still a band, Megadeth is Dave Mustaine's baby, it was his vision, his songs and I am sure he is alot happier leading his own project than he would have been to share glory and creative direction. Just my humble IMO.

Mglaffas81 wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Dave was destroying Metallica- Kirk joining was the best thing that ever happened to Metallica. Kirk is such a nice guy, and one hell of a guitar player as well.

Don't get me wrong, there have been days when I wondered what Metallica would've been like had the band not fired Dave. I think they still could've been an amazing band had they been able to weather the storm. I remember reading an interview with Dave way back in the day regarding Gun's & Roses and their tour with Metallica in the summer of 1992. Dave was quoted as saying that had he still been in the band, Metallica would be the baddest band in the world. Notice I didn't say the best band in the world. Maybe it was the state of heavy metal/rock of Axl which created this myth that it was suddenly more important to be the baddest band vs that of being a great band. In fact I remember always seeing Lars being quoted when talking about GNR back in those days about how he thought that they were a very "Dangerous" band.

Could you imagine a big mouth like Axl Rose spouting off to Dave on that tour, or speaking badly about Metallica. Dave would've probably wiped the floor with him! That tour might've ended very early.


You're probably right about Dave ultimately destroying the band. I guess that would've hinged on Dave getting help for his addictions a lot earlier in life. Even had he done that, Metallica during those days certainly weren't about to put a stop to their partying ways. Unfortunately you had three fun drunks, and one very difficult drunk.

manny wrote:

I agree with you metalinmyveins, the best thing that ever happened to both Metallica and Dave Mustaine's career was Mustaine being letting go, the combination of four strong personalities of Mustaine, Hetfield, Ulrich and Burton, and what seemed to be young Mustaine having something to prove due to his upbringing, if he had remained in the band I am sure the band imploded during the 'Kill 'Em All Tour'.

Mustaine had a terrible upbringing. In fact James and Dave in some sense had similar family lives, at least as it pertains to being very dysfunctional. Take James; he had to endure growing up in a Christian Scientologist world. His parents seemed to be loving to an extent, but they were very into the movement. James would talk about how he wasn't allowed to participate in health class, because Christian Scientology obviously doesn't believe that should be taught, and that doctors in many cases are bad. "Your body is a temple, and God will heal you". James could never play sports either, namely football, because he would've had to get a physical, and his parents simply wouldn't allow it. James was a very alienated kid. I also remember hearing James talk about a girl he knew (from the church) when he was very young, and how she broke her arm. The parents never took her to a doctor. The little girl showed the congregation how her arm had healed, though this wasn't the case. James said it was so deformed, and all because the parents refused to let their daughter seek medical attention.

I know ULT doesn't like the song "The God that Failed" off the black album, though I feel like the song is a total justification of the absolute brainwashing that this so called religion (Christian Scientology) is based on. The song basically refers to James mother and her devotion to this cause, and how she refused to seek medical help as cancer ate away at her. James father as I understand it, died the very same way. My feeling on this has always been, God put special people here on earth to help those who are in need. God's work is done through a conduit in that of human beings.

Dave on the other hand had a very abusive father, both mentally and physically. That's been documented to a great extent via "Megadeth: Behind the Music". Much of his tough upbringing was talked about by Dave's older sister. Not only was his dad violent, but he also had a penchant for alcohol, and I think drugs. Dave not only inherited his father's bad temper, but also his addictions. Dave, his sister, and his mother were also on the run from his father when his parents split. It's really not surprising that Dave became the individual he did. I guess the saving grace is this, Dave at least got off drugs, though I think he's still a wine drinker? His father died very early in life, so at least Dave didn't go that same route in life, though he was very close.

manny wrote:

Mustaine is not a team player, nothing wrong with that, but Metallica is a band led by two guys, but still a band, Megadeth is Dave Mustaine's baby, it was his vision, his songs and I am sure he is alot happier leading his own project than he would have been to share glory and creative direction. Just my humble IMO.

I couldn't agree with you more Manny. All one has to do is look at the amount of people that Dave has had in Megadeth. Dave likes to rip on Metallica for this and that, but for the most part they've been a very stable band. If not for the death of Cliff, I think the band would still be the original four members when "Kill 'Em All" debuted. Dave on the other hand has had nothing but a revolving door within that of Megadeth. That speaks volumes, as it pertains to other musicians ultimately getting along with him. I respect Dave immensely as an innovator, a musician, as a speaker on many things regarding both life and worldly issues, and as an ambassador for that of heavy metal. Yet, he is about as flawed and hypocritical as a person can be. Certainly nobody out there is perfect, but one would think that Dave could put the 26 year old resentment to rest regarding Metallica, and just move on. At some point in time, one must get some kind of closure.

I never totally understood Mustaine's bitterness toward Metallica, Megadeth actually made it big and still have very active and successful career, it is not like he ended up flipping burgers at a fast food joint. Not many musicians get a shot at brass ring, not only has Dave Mustaine has been able to not only have created a very successful career but has been able to substain it under his own terms, for 20 plus years, to be bitter of what have been if he had stayed with Metallica does not make any sense, expect maybe that those guys may have been the first real familiy that guy ever had and if that is the case, the resentment has nothing to do with platinum albums but other deep seated issues that you have brought up.

This thread has really gone off on a tangent. Oh well, I give up.

Temple of Blood wrote:

This thread has really gone off on a tangent. Oh well, I give up.

Yeah, sorry. I'm mostly to blame. MetalRob had mentioned about Dave being expendable. I guess my point was, it doesn't matter what Dave was seen as. He could've been "The father of thrash", or one of its main innovators, regardless his days in Metallica were numbered, and for various reasons.

I'll give Dave credit as being a main influence on thrash and one of a handful of innovators. I can not and I will not give him credit for being the father of thrash based on the fact that there were others playing thrash before Dave's name was even known.

"Imagine my shock when Metallica's debut album, Kill 'Em All, was released in the summer of 1983, and four of my songs were included: "The Four Horsemen" (formerly "Mechanix"), "Jump in the Fire", "Phantom Lord", and "Metal Militia". The same for songs that had been included on the No Life Till Leather demo. The writing credits were altered to reflect changes made in teh songs during the recording process, and, I can only speculate, to minimize my contribution. Each of these songs were primarily mine, and yet James or Lars (or both) took a share in the credit for all four songs. On each, my name was placed last, so that the songwriting credit for "Jump in the Fire," for example, reads as follows: Hetfield/Ulrich/Mustaine.

I listened to these songs with a blend of wonder and indignance. I couldn't believe they would use my songs after throwing me out of the band. They never contacted me, never asked my permission. They just did it. To suggest that the modifications made to these songs somehow reflect a collegial atmosphere or a more balanced division of labor is equally inaccurate. The day after I was dismissed from Metallica, Kirk Hammet was in New York, taking my place in the Music Building, auditioning for my role in the band, and mimicking the blistering lead guitar solos I had created, solos that stand today as the genesis of thrash metal."

Dave Mustaine, Mustaine, p. 101

ultmetal wrote:

"Imagine my shock when Metallica's debut album, Kill 'Em All, was released in the summer of 1983, and four of my songs were included: "The Four Horsemen" (formerly "Mechanix"), "Jump in the Fire", "Phantom Lord", and "Metal Militia". The same for songs that had been included on the No Life Till Leather demo. The writing credits were altered to reflect changes made in teh songs during the recording process, and, I can only speculate, to minimize my contribution. Each of these songs were primarily mine, and yet James or Lars (or both) took a share in the credit for all four songs. On each, my name was placed last, so that the songwriting credit for "Jump in the Fire," for example, reads as follows: Hetfield/Ulrich/Mustaine.

I listened to these songs with a blend of wonder and indignance. I couldn't believe they would use my songs after throwing me out of the band. They never contacted me, never asked my permission. They just did it. To suggest that the modifications made to these songs somehow reflect a collegial atmosphere or a more balanced division of labor is equally inaccurate. The day after I was dismissed from Metallica, Kirk Hammet was in New York, taking my place in the Music Building, auditioning for my role in the band, and mimicking the blistering lead guitar solos I had created, solos that stand today as the genesis of thrash metal."

Dave Mustaine, Mustaine, p. 101

This book was a great read, BUT surprisingly, Dave never mentioned what his feelings were regarding two of the songs he contributed to on "Ride The Lightning" (The title track and Call of Ktulu). After reading this part in the book, I was anticipating his reaction to be even more venomous (once Ride hit the shelves), but it was never talked about in the book . Then again, I've heard Dave in past interviews quip about how he still is receiving nice royalty checks from his former band mates.

I'm enjoying reading the book right now. It's got me in a Megadeth mood.

He was one of the main guys... but he can't take all the credit.

He's pretty recognized for being one of, if not the main founding father of thrash. In the end, Megadeth rocks.

MetalRob331 wrote:

I'll give Dave credit as being a main influence on thrash and one of a handful of innovators. I can not and I will not give him credit for being the father of thrash based on the fact that there were others playing thrash before Dave's name was even known.

Indeed, and Kirk Hammet was in fact one of those names as he was with Exodus back in 1981, which was before Metallica first formed.

When it comes to thrash I've always given Megadeth, and particularly Mustaine, more credit than Metallica because for one, if it hadn't been for Mustaine, Metallica's debut album would have most likely sounded very different. In the end, it did sound very different from what it would have sounded like had Mustaine not been booted out but the fact remains that it was due to Mustaine's contributions that Kill Em All had such a great number of solid songs.

I'm not necessarily discounting the contributions the rest had but at the same time, if you read Mustaine's book (which I know is not the most unbiased account of things) you'll see that Mustaine's talents, interest and dedication seemed to outweigh the rest of the guys in Metallica. At the very least, unlike any of the other guys in the band at the time (save for Cliff Burton who entered a bit later on during Mustaine's stint) Mustaine could actually play his instrument more than proficiently and was an overall skilled songwriter.

I'm not bashing Metallica with this, just giving credit where credit is due. The rest of the guys in Metallica came into their own as time went on.

ultmetal wrote:

So it would probably be more accurate to say that Mustaine was one of the early fathers of thrash metal.

This is the most appropriate approach.

There were bands like Venom, Raven or Anvil that helped shaping the genre.
Diamond Heads Lightning to the Nations Album was a big influence on Kill Em All.
And then you had songs like Accepts "Fast as a Shark" or Motorheads "Overkill" which made also a huge impact.

Dave Mustaine build up on that and created thrash metal.

Sadly he is not the inventor of a good vocal performance, especially live.

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Sadly he is not the inventor of a good vocal performance, especially live.