Was Dave Mustaine the father of thrash metal?

In the liner notes to the reissue of "Killing is my Business", Scott Ian writes words to this effect. At first I was a bit shocked but then the more I thought about it, the more that I thought it might be true.

He says he was for the most part the only guitarist in METALLICA at the time he was in the band because James had moved over solely to vocals. And since I think we can all agree that "Kill em All" was the first thrash album then that puts Mustaine as at least one (if not the primary) of the originators of the movement.

To me the thrash riffs Dave Mustaine was writing in the early days were "thrashier" than standard thrash fare. Where other people would ape the basics of thrash, Dave to me seemed to get it and go all the way with it. His riffs were a lot more twisted than his contemporaries.

The only thing that makes me think it may not be true is that there are some no-name guitarists who wrote stuff on "Kill em All" too, like didn't Lloyd Grant write "Motorbreath" and I think someone else wrote "Hit the Lights" IIRC.

Dave also says that he had a big hand in all the big 4 thrash bands. He wrote a lot of METALLICA's early stuff, he was of course the primary songwriter in MEGADETH, he says he taught Kerry King his riffing style in the early days, and he says he told ANTHRAX to fire their singer and bassist and once they had they got a lot more successful.

I know Dave has a big mouth and says a lot of stuff but I think there's probably a lot of truth in all that.

If not the inventor, then certainly one of the most important figures in the movement. Now, I think both Overkill and Dark Angel already had demos out by the time "Kill 'em All" was released, and both bands had a def. thrash style. But "Kill 'em All" was the first album.

I read that in the liner notes too and I think I can agree. Mustaine penned a good portion of the riffs on Kill Em All and No Life til Leather. However, wasn't Exodus playing thrash at the same time in the early 80's. I remember reading an article where Kerry King said that Exodus was the band that influenced them to player faster and heavier. Before that they were Dragonslayer and were doing more of a classic Judas Priest style.

I don't know that it can ever be traced back to the work of a single person but Dave is obviously one of the main architects of the whole thrash movement.

I think because of his huge impact on two of the frontrunners of thrash you could make the arguement that he is.

ultmetal wrote:

However, wasn't Exodus playing thrash at the same time in the early 80's. I remember reading an article where Kerry King said that Exodus was the band that influenced them to player faster and heavier. Before that they were Dragonslayer and were doing more of a classic Judas Priest style.

We'd have to go month-by-month to see who released what and when, but my recollection of the early EXODUS demos was that they were very NWOBHM-y with harmonized guitars and such, not too fast. I know METAL CHURCH had some early demos around that time frame that may have been a bit thrashy but they were still pretty squarely rooted in the Euro-metal scene of the early 80s I think.

To me, OVERKILL just sped-up a lot of NWOBHM which by many is called "speed metal" today. To me, Mustaine added the crazy thrashiness of twisted riffery.

It's funny how to me all the thrash singers in the early days were trying to sing high like DIAMOND HEAD or JUDAS PRIEST or something. I think it's a shame pretty much all of them dropped that after an album or two.

Fat Freddy wrote:

I don't know that it can ever be traced back to the work of a single person but Dave is obviously one of the main architects of the whole thrash movement.

Well, I think we know that but I think there is evidence that we can go much further. What kindof stuff was Hetfield writing before he met Dave Mustaine? What kindof stuff was Kerry King writing before he heard METALLICA?

It may be hard to pinpoint stuff because like ult said, I think a lot of those Bay Area bands started really influencing each other at some point.

I think it would be very hard to say that OVERKILL invented thrash considering that there are no reports that anyone was influenced by them in their earliest days or that they toured the west coast and made an impression on anyone.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it would be very hard to say that OVERKILL invented thrash

If you've ever seen Rat Skates' "Born in the Basement" DVD he basically takes credit not only for inventing Overkill, but thrash in general! He makes Mustaine sound absolutely humble.

Overkill's song "The Beast Within " was apparently written as early as 1981, but wasn't recorded 'til their first "Power in Black" demo, taped between March and September of 1983.

So it would probably be more accurate to say that Mustaine was one of the early fathers of thrash metal.

Metallica's Kill Em All was the archetype for thrash. The riffing on that album would come to define the genre. Whomever wrote the bulk of that was the father of the genre, IMO. Slayer, Anthrax's and Overkill's first albums were essentially Judas Priest on speed, so they aren't contenders if you ask me.

SpectreFate wrote:

Slayer, Anthrax's and Overkill's first albums were essentially Judas Priest on speed, so they aren't contenders if you ask me.

I've always thought that Anthrax's first album sounded like Iron Maiden's KILLERS on speed.

I read something interesting in the current issue of Sweden Rock Magazine. They had this Queen special in there, and regarding the song "Stone Cold Crazy" they said it is widely accepted as one of the earliest thrash-sounding songs. (Oh, and don't come here talking about the Metallica cover version. These guys knows their musical history so that has nothing to do with it). While I have never heard such a claim, I found it really interesting. I know we've all talked about Motörhead, Accept and even Deep Purple as forefathers of thrash metal. But Queen?

Fat Freddy wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it would be very hard to say that OVERKILL invented thrash

If you've ever seen Rat Skates' "Born in the Basement" DVD he basically takes credit not only for inventing Overkill, but thrash in general! He makes Mustaine sound absolutely humble.

I did see it, as well as other interviews with him and I don't remember him saying that. Even Bobby Gustafson says Rat was the leader of the band at the time he was in it.

kmorg wrote:

Overkill's song "The Beast Within " was apparently written as early as 1981, but wasn't recorded 'til their first "Power in Black" demo, taped between March and September of 1983.

I don't think anything counts until it is recorded. I mean, Mustaine wrote stuff in his pre-METALLICA band PANIC but who can verify how thrashy it was?

I'll check out that OVERKILL demo. I think I heard it a while back and it didn't make much of an impression.

SpectreFate wrote:

Metallica's Kill Em All was the archetype for thrash. The riffing on that album would come to define the genre. Whomever wrote the bulk of that was the father of the genre, IMO. Slayer, Anthrax's and Overkill's first albums were essentially Judas Priest on speed, so they aren't contenders if you ask me.

I pretty much agree. But I think those other bands stuff had a thrashy element to it too that they probably got from listening to METALLICA.

kmorg wrote:

I read something interesting in the current issue of Sweden Rock Magazine. They had this Queen special in there, and regarding the song "Stone Cold Crazy" they said it is widely accepted as one of the earliest thrash-sounding songs. (Oh, and don't come here talking about the Metallica cover version. These guys knows their musical history so that has nothing to do with it). While I have never heard such a claim, I found it really interesting. I know we've all talked about Motörhead, Accept and even Deep Purple as forefathers of thrash metal. But Queen?

I could definitely see that song, along with stuff like DIAMOND HEAD, ANGEL WITCH, MERCYFUL FATE, etc. being one of the early proto-thrash influences.

I always thought that Kill 'Em All sounded like Diamond Head on speed.

ultmetal wrote:

So it would probably be more accurate to say that Mustaine was one of the early fathers of thrash metal.

Based on what I have heard and read, I think he deserves a lot more than just to be placed on equal footing with about 7 other guys who happened to have early demos out and later play thrash music.

Id definitly say ONE of the founders fathers

ultmetal wrote:

I always thought that Kill 'Em All sounded like Diamond Head on speed.

One lead guitar lick on there was ripped off by Dave Mustaine in its entirety. Same key and everything. I guess that is just one of the problem with being a young, inexperienced metalhead.

Mustaine is among the many founders of thrash IMO. You cant pinpoint any one person in the genre really. All we can say is who did it better then others.

I don't have anything to add to this really, but I do like the discussion. I guess I never thought of Mustaine as a "father of a genre", but all of you are making some real good points and it's an interesting read over lunch.

I would say He would be a contender for the title as much as any other.