Was Dave Mustaine the father of thrash metal?

ultmetal wrote:

I see the young guys are the one's that disagree. Interesting.

I think if a guy like Scott Ian, who himself is one of the originators of the thrash sound, says that Mustaine is the father of thrash, I'd tend to believe him.

Sounds like Mglaffas81 just has a beef with Dave in general.

I don't like Dave either he is an A$$! But I can't consider him when he joined a band that was already creating thrash before he joined.

It is interesting how Metallica is called a Bay Area thrash band when they are originaly from El Lay. There was a band from Long Beach called Shellshock and one from San Berdoo called Graceful Lu that were on the same page as Mustaine, but only after hearing what Mustaine was doing and began toying around with it. What Venom and Motorhead were doing at that time may have been in the same nieghborhood as Mustaine, but not on the same street. I saw Metallica first appear in the clubs and then watched the impact they had on other bands and what they were doing music wise. Mustaine was the creative force of what Metallica was doing and the band wouldn't of been what they became without him. The same thing may have took place elsewhere in another music scene ? I wasn't there so I can't really comment on that. I witnessed the emergence of Mustaine and how what he created impacted the local music scene of So. Cal. My .02

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I don't like Dave either he is an A$$! But I can't consider him when he joined a band that was already creating thrash before he joined.

what band are you refering to ?

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didn't Lloyd Grant write "Motorbreath

Liner notes on Kill 'em All plainly say Hetfield wrote the song. All i know is Motorhead influenced everyone making them the proto-grandfathers of thrash.

You want me to believe Metallica wouldn't be the same w/o Mustaine? Mustaine gets credited for 3-4 Metallica songs thats all. James was and still is the creative force in Metallica. Why do people act like Mustaine was there from the start, he wasn't. Yes, he played on some tracks, but James already had tons of material for a record.

Mustaine was expendable and got what he deserved. He can sit back and hold a grudge all he wants, as Metallica will always be bigger then him.

Again I cant consider Mustaine as a founding father when he joined Metallica who already were producing thrash w/o him. Just my opinion..

Troublezone wrote:

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didn't Lloyd Grant write "Motorbreath

Liner notes on Kill 'em All plainly say Hetfield wrote the song. All i know is Motorhead influenced everyone making them the proto-grandfathers of thrash.

Motorhead and Venom get my nod..

MetalRob331 wrote:

You want me to believe Metallica wouldn't be the same w/o Mustaine? Mustaine gets credited for 3-4 Metallica songs thats all. James was and still is the creative force in Metallica. Why do people act like Mustaine was there from the start, he wasn't. Yes, he played on some tracks, but James already had tons of material for a record.

Mustaine was expendable and got what he deserved. He can sit back and hold a grudge all he wants, as Metallica will always be bigger then him.

Again I cant consider Mustaine as a founding father when he joined Metallica who already were producing thrash w/o him. Just my opinion..

I saw them in the clubs of El Lay before they ever began to record Kill em' ALL and Dave was there playing. So I don't get where you say he joined afterwards or during ? The style of Mustaine's songs influenced what James wrote. This coming from James saying onstage "this is a new song I wrote" He said that about the 10th time I saw them and that song was more in the vein of Mustaine's style. When Metallica first started playing in clubs. Lars and James were very poor players and later became better musicians. You can go on and believe what you read, I actually saw and heard something. I respect your opinion about Mustaine not being the father of thrash. We all have an opinion

kmorg wrote:

I read something interesting in the current issue of Sweden Rock Magazine. They had this Queen special in there, and regarding the song "Stone Cold Crazy" they said it is widely accepted as one of the earliest thrash-sounding songs. (Oh, and don't come here talking about the Metallica cover version. These guys knows their musical history so that has nothing to do with it). While I have never heard such a claim, I found it really interesting. I know we've all talked about Motörhead, Accept and even Deep Purple as forefathers of thrash metal. But Queen?

No doubt about it kmorg, the Queen song "Sheer Heart Attack" is even more like what people call "Thrash/Speed Metal"......



Also Sweet's "Set Me Free"........

MetalRob331 wrote:

You want me to believe Metallica wouldn't be the same w/o Mustaine? Mustaine gets credited for 3-4 Metallica songs thats all.

Actually 6 songs in total. It's also generally been accepted that several of his riffs and parts of his solos were used on both Kill 'Em All and Ride The Lightning even though the full songs themselves weren't his.

I just can't believe that some are almost completely discounting him. Yah, he's always been somewhat arrogant and has a habit of shooting off at the mouth. That is no reason whatsoever to deny the man his place in history. If not being named the father of the genre, he is AT LEAST one of only 3 or 4 men to found it. I mean he is credited for creating or helping to create 30% of Metallica's early output! That number is probably the bare minimum, as we have no way to quantify beyond that (seeing as we don't know specifically what riffs and pieces of solos he created that Metallica used).

James B. wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

You want me to believe Metallica wouldn't be the same w/o Mustaine? Mustaine gets credited for 3-4 Metallica songs thats all. James was and still is the creative force in Metallica. Why do people act like Mustaine was there from the start, he wasn't. Yes, he played on some tracks, but James already had tons of material for a record.

Mustaine was expendable and got what he deserved. He can sit back and hold a grudge all he wants, as Metallica will always be bigger then him.

Again I cant consider Mustaine as a founding father when he joined Metallica who already were producing thrash w/o him. Just my opinion..

I saw them in the clubs of El Lay before they ever began to record Kill em' ALL and Dave was there playing. So I don't get where you say he joined afterwards or during ? The style of Mustaine's songs influenced what James wrote. This coming from James saying onstage "this is a new song I wrote" He said that about the 10th time I saw them and that song was more in the vein of Mustaine's style. When Metallica first started playing in clubs. Lars and James were very poor players and later became better musicians. You can go on and believe what you read, I actually saw and heard something. I respect your opinion about Mustaine not being the father of thrash. We all have an opinion

James and Lars were the first 2 members of Metallica. Mustaine was brought in by an add in a paper or magazine.

Hey bro, I never stated Mustaine founded Metallica. Just that he played onstage with them quite a bit and I saw James develop a playing and writing style that was taught or shown to him by the other guitar player and songwriter in the band at that time.

James B. wrote:

MetalRob331 wrote:

You want me to believe Metallica wouldn't be the same w/o Mustaine? Mustaine gets credited for 3-4 Metallica songs thats all. James was and still is the creative force in Metallica. Why do people act like Mustaine was there from the start, he wasn't. Yes, he played on some tracks, but James already had tons of material for a record.

Mustaine was expendable and got what he deserved. He can sit back and hold a grudge all he wants, as Metallica will always be bigger then him.

Again I cant consider Mustaine as a founding father when he joined Metallica who already were producing thrash w/o him. Just my opinion..

I saw them in the clubs of El Lay before they ever began to record Kill em' ALL and Dave was there playing. So I don't get where you say he joined afterwards or during ? The style of Mustaine's songs influenced what James wrote. This coming from James saying onstage "this is a new song I wrote" He said that about the 10th time I saw them and that song was more in the vein of Mustaine's style. When Metallica first started playing in clubs. Lars and James were very poor players and later became better musicians. You can go on and believe what you read, I actually saw and heard something. I respect your opinion about Mustaine not being the father of thrash. We all have an opinion

That's very cool that you were able to witness the beginning stages of Metallica. Needless to say, I'm very envious. I think an equally important element that Dave brought to the band, was his attitude. James, you probably can attest to this. Back in the day, James Hetfield was not the most aggressive guy behind the mic. It was Dave Mustaine who between songs would get behind the mic and talk to the crowd. I have two early boots with Dave in the band, and it backs up all the early claims of Dave being the showman, and James clearly taking a back seat.

I'm certainly not ready to crown Dave the founder of the thrash sound, but clearly he was a very instrumental figure in it. I've always seen Dave as a very tragic figure in the sense that he's never been able to truly move on with his life/career. Here is a clear example below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AAPHM_TPmI

I mean, how many years has it been? How old are you? He goes from slamming them, to saying I wish them the best, to slamming Kirk (who from what I can remember has never ever taken a shot at Dave). Does anyone here think Kirk is still holding onto the fact that Dave supposedly slept with his girlfriend before he got the gig with Metallica? Hmmmmmmm, probably not...Let's see Kirk is married, with two kids, has more money than he probably knows what to do with, and he seems like he is very content with his life, within the band and clearly outside of it. Dave on the other hand, who knows. It seems like he probably has day to day issues regarding his departure that occurred in what will be 26 years ago in April. For Dave's own sanity, I hope someday he might actually be able to put this behind him. Just maybe one day the guys in Metallica might actually extend the olive branch to him, and who knows maybe that might even result in Dave being onstage with Metallica (whether it's just for one song or a slew of them).

Peace out...

It was a combination of DIAMOND HEAD, MOTORHEAD, MISFITS, RAMONES, JUDAS PRIEST, SEX PISTOLS and some other stuff. Metalica could be the first defined thrash band, but they didn't invented the style, they just mixed some formulas

Trash does actually have many founders, Dave Mustaine being one amongst many others.

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Trash

Is the h button not working?

Troublezone wrote:

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Trash

Is the h button not working?

It works at the end

Mustaine is definitley one of the founding fathers of thrash, there is no denying this, period.

I never denied Dave's influence - He certainly is one of the many "fathers", but I think that is a stupid label. Again, "hit the lights" was written before Dave even joined - Surely Hetfield was influenced by Dave, but nobody can claim that is why James wrote the music he did, and played the way he did.

MegaDave may be a bit of a tool sometimes, but I'd pretty much place him as thrash's father. I'm not denying the influence of the others, but he really did seem to spear head a lot of Metallica's work and undeniably left a permanent impression on the other members. Perhaps James are Lars are thrash's mum.

Mglaffas81 wrote:

I never denied Dave's influence - He certainly is one of the many "fathers", but I think that is a stupid label. Again, "hit the lights" was written before Dave even joined - Surely he was influenced by Dave, but nobody can claim that is why James wrote the music he did, and played the way he did.

Right, I agree James was playing thrash before Dave even joined Metallica. When you get another guitar player and share ideas you have to play the other guitar players songs. James was playing Daves music he wasn't being influenced by him. If Dave had that much impact on James he wouldn't of been expendable IMO.

Again listen to early Venom, Motorhead, even Queen. Thats where the influence came from and those are the bands IMO that started the whole speed and aggression style.

Smindas wrote:

MegaDave may be a bit of a tool sometimes, but I'd pretty much place him as thrash's father. I'm not denying the influence of the others, but he really did seem to spear head a lot of Metallica's work and undeniably left a permanent impression on the other members. Perhaps James are Lars are thrash's mum.

good point. I'm with smindas.

[quote="MetalRob331"]

Mglaffas81 wrote:

Right, I agree James was playing thrash before Dave even joined Metallica. When you get another guitar player and share ideas you have to play the other guitar players songs. James was playing Daves music he wasn't being influenced by him. If Dave had that much impact on James he wouldn't of been expendable IMO.

Again listen to early Venom, Motorhead, even Queen. Thats where the influence came from and those are the bands IMO that started the whole speed and aggression style.

True those were some of the influences on Metallica and Dave Mustaine.

Niccolo Paganini was huge influence on Yngwie Malmsteen, but it does not make Paganini the father of shred or neo classical guitar playing.

[quote="MetalRob331"]

Mglaffas81 wrote:

I never denied Dave's influence - He certainly is one of the many "fathers", but I think that is a stupid label. Again, "hit the lights" was written before Dave even joined - Surely he was influenced by Dave, but nobody can claim that is why James wrote the music he did, and played the way he did.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Right, I agree James was playing thrash before Dave even joined Metallica. When you get another guitar player and share ideas you have to play the other guitar players songs. James was playing Daves music he wasn't being influenced by him. If Dave had that much impact on James he wouldn't of been expendable IMO.

I'll play "Devil's advocate" here, even though I agree with you to an extent on Dave and whether or not he should be deemed the "Father of thrash". I think someone can have a ton of talent, and still be expendable. I'll use a baseball analogy to begin my counter argument. Manny Ramirez is easily a top 10 player in baseball, and when it's all said and done his numbers will simply be outstanding. He will be in the top 10 in every major category (HR's, R.B.I.'s, Doubles, Slugging Percentage, etc...), yet the Red Sox did the right thing by making a three way trade with him, and bringing Jason Bay in from the Pirates. Even though Jason Bay is a good player, he's no Manny Ramirez, and that was proven based on Manny's 2nd half numbers with the Dodgers last season. Yet, there are times when a team has to just cut its losses and simply move on. Manny was becoming a huge destraction on and off the field. The Red Sox would have folded like a cheap tent had he stayed on their team last year. Cohesion within an organization or in this instance, a band, is everything. Their simply wasn't cohesion as it pertains to Metallica, especially when the band wasn't on the stage.

The second part of my argument regarding Dave and his expendability had much to do with ego's inside the band. There simply was one too many egos within the band at that time. Why do we know this? Because Lars inferred this on the "Some Kind of Monster" movie, when he talked about the Dave Mustaine days.

Lars: "I can remember from the Dave Mustaine days, when him (James) and Dave Mustaine started like right away with their big chests beating and their mannerisms, and the whole thing was very much about this kind of like macho.....And I couldn't deal with that stuff. Looking back on it 18/19 years ago, I felt so alienated, because it was just so far removed from the upbringing that I had come from."

Take those sentiments that Lars expressed, and combine that with Dave being a VERY AGGRESSIVE DRUNK, and you have a recipe for disaster. There are plenty of examples of Dave's behavior, but of the more well known ones was a story regarding when Ron McGovney was still in the band. Ron's car was getting scratched up by one of Dave's dogs. James took acceptance to the fact that Ron's car was getting scratched up, and yelled to Dave regarding the dogs. End result, James gets hit in the mouth, and Ron gets tossed around the house by Dave.

Take that incident and times it by 10 and you have what amounts to the Mustaine days in the band, and the volatility that might take place at a moments notice. To me, Dave seemed like a very early version of Axl Rose. You just didn't know what you were going to get from the guy on a day to day basis. Is it any surprise that they replaced him with the gentle soul that is and continues to be Kirk Hammett? Talk about polar opposite.

I think it's fair enough to say that he is one of the founding fathers of thrash without a doubt.

[quote="metalinmyveins"]

MetalRob331 wrote:

Mglaffas81 wrote:

I never denied Dave's influence - He certainly is one of the many "fathers", but I think that is a stupid label. Again, "hit the lights" was written before Dave even joined - Surely he was influenced by Dave, but nobody can claim that is why James wrote the music he did, and played the way he did.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Right, I agree James was playing thrash before Dave even joined Metallica. When you get another guitar player and share ideas you have to play the other guitar players songs. James was playing Daves music he wasn't being influenced by him. If Dave had that much impact on James he wouldn't of been expendable IMO.

I'll play "Devil's advocate" here, even though I agree with you to an extent on Dave and whether or not he should be deemed the "Father of thrash". I think someone can have a ton of talent, and still be expendable. I'll use a baseball analogy to begin my counter argument. Manny Ramirez is easily a top 10 player in baseball, and when it's all said and done his numbers will simply be outstanding. He will be in the top 10 in every major category (HR's, R.B.I.'s, Doubles, Slugging Percentage, etc...), yet the Red Sox did the right thing by making a three way trade with him, and bringing Jason Bay in from the Pirates. Even though Jason Bay is a good player, he's no Manny Ramirez, and that was proven based on Manny's 2nd half numbers with the Dodgers last season. Yet, there are times when a team has to just cut its losses and simply move on. Manny was becoming a huge destraction on and off the field. The Red Sox would have folded like a cheap tent had he stayed on their team last year. Cohesion within an organization or in this instance, a band, is everything. Their simply wasn't cohesion as it pertains to Metallica, especially when the band wasn't on the stage.

The second part of my argument regarding Dave and his expendability had much to do with ego's inside the band. There simply was one too many egos within the band at that time. Why do we know this? Because Lars inferred this on the "Some Kind of Monster" movie, when he talked about the Dave Mustaine days.

Lars: "I can remember from the Dave Mustaine days, when him (James) and Dave Mustaine started like right away with their big chests beating and their mannerisms, and the whole thing was very much about this kind of like macho.....And I couldn't deal with that stuff. Looking back on it 18/19 years ago, I felt so alienated, because it was just so far removed from the upbringing that I had come from."

Take those sentiments that Lars expressed, and combine that with Dave being a VERY AGGRESSIVE DRUNK, and you have a recipe for disaster. There are plenty of examples of Dave's behavior, but of the more well known ones was a story regarding when Ron McGovney was still in the band. Ron's car was getting scratched up by one of Dave's dogs. James took acceptance to the fact that Ron's car was getting scratched up, and yelled to Dave regarding the dogs. End result, James gets hit in the mouth, and Ron gets tossed around the house by Dave.

Take that incident and times it by 10 and you have what amounts to the Mustaine days in the band, and the volatility that might take place at a moments notice. To me, Dave seemed like a very early version of Axl Rose. You just didn't know what you were going to get from the guy on a day to day basis. Is it any surprise that they replaced him with the gentle soul that is and continues to be Kirk Hammett? Talk about polar opposite.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Dave was destroying Metallica- Kirk joining was the best thing that ever happened to Metallica. Kirk is such a nice guy, and one hell of a guitar player as well.